Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

[Felix Nachem]

Thanks for the post!

It makes me just realize how important leverage is.

 

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[Elias]

I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????

100% Agree - the technical skills are a nice to have. The marketing, copy and sales are definitely a NEED to have

 

[Levit]

I don't find these to be mutually exclusive skills at all. Programming is fantastic to learn, particularly if you enjoy it for its own sake, as it will teach you problem-solving on a level that little else can. Copywriting, marketing, sales, and psychology are all absolutely fascinating, and I've found myself studying both for years because I enjoy them.

The bottom line is this: you don't need to be world-class at either to be massively successful.
The combination of core competency at multiple skills like these gives you a fantastic power and freedom. I wouldn't discourage people from doing either or both.

Being a jack-of-all-trades and, as I like to say, "master of some" is incredibly liberating in my experience.

I realise this is an old post, so I think it's important to point out that today more than ever before, you don't need to be a "10X rockstar developer" to get useful tech shipped.

 

[Yortanlı/Türkiye]

Buradaki insanların neden kodlamayı öğrenmek istediğini hala anlamıyorum!

Bu zamanı pazarlamayı ve satış metni yazmayı öğrenerek geçirin. Bir uygulama yazmaya 200 saat harcamak için kodlamayı öğrenmek için 1000 saat harcamak APTALLIKTIR.

Pazarlamayı ve kopya yazmayı öğrenerek 1000 saat harcayın ve bu beceriyi uygulamanın ömrü boyunca, artı bir sonraki uygulamanın ve diğer insanların uygulamalarının ömrü boyunca kullanabilirsiniz VE bu size para kazandırır. Kod yazmak, bir şeye sahip olduğunuz anlamına gelir, ancak kendi kendini satmaz.

Kodlamayı öğrenirseniz şu şekilde çalışır:
Kodlamayı öğrenmek için 1000 saat.
Bir uygulama yazmak için 200 saat.
satış için bekleyin, biraz daha bekleyin, biraz daha bekleyin.
Pazarlamayı ve kopya yazmayı öğrenmek için 1000 saat harcayın.
uygulamanızın bir kısmını satın
Hataları düzeltmek ve destek sorunlarına yanıt vermek için 150 saat harcayın çünkü uygulamanız saçmalık çünkü gerçekten kodlamayı öğrenmek 5000 saat sürüyor.
PITA faktörü ve uygulamanızla ilgili tüm kötü yorumlar nedeniyle hayal kırıklığına uğrayın ve uygulamanızı kapın.


Pazarlamayı ve kopya yazmayı öğrenin:
Pazarlamayı ve kod yazmayı öğrenen 1000 saat, bu 1000 saat devam ederken, uygulamalarda 10.000 saat eğitim almış birine uygulamanızı yazması için ödeme yapın.
Uygulamanızı hemen pazarlamaya başlayın.
Uygulamanızın çoğunu satın.
Herhangi bir destek sorununu geliştiriciye iletin
Uygulamanızdan çok daha fazlasını satın.
3 uygulama daha oluşturun ve bunları pazarlayın
Çekleri yatırmak için sık sık bankaya gidin.

Farkı GÖRÜYOR MUSUNUZ ????

Hey @MJ DeMarco what is your opinion

 

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[Terava]

I can only speak for my own journey, programming was dead simple to make a strong income that I then redeployed into a business.

Copywriting was the opposite, almost a business in itself. Sounds nice in theory: Succeed in copywriting, succeed in business building. But only if it works. It's less a sure thing than coding, saving capital internally, and then business building using hired help.

 

[2legit2quit]

I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????

the thing is, paying a dev is VERY expensive now days, no?

 

[Roli]

the thing is, paying a dev is VERY expensive now days, no?

I wish I'd never listened to this advice. If you want to learn to code, learn to code.

 

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[AresQard]

I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????

Thanks for writing this gold thread, implementing the knowledge straight away.

 

[Poppaboy]

I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????

I 100% agree with that. Coding is a skill that helps you create million dollar products. But marketing and sales is where millions are made.

 

[ChasingDream97]

SOME of the books recommended to me by a pro copywriter.

However if you want to accelerate you'll need to pay for a mentor

"Scientific Advertising" Claude Hopkins

"Tested Advertising" Caples (4th edition or earlier only)

"How I Raised Myself from a Failure to Success in Selling" Betger

"How to Write a Good Advertisement" Schwab.

"How to Write Sales Letters That Sell" Drayton Bird

"The Robert Collier Letter Book" - by Robert Collier

"Tested Advertising Methods" -by John Caples

"The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

"Break-Through Advertising" - by Eugene M. Schwartz

"Advertising Secrets of The Written Word" by Joe Sugarman

"Making Ads Pay" by John Caples

Web Copy That Sells by Maria Veloso

The Architecture of Persuasion by Michael Masterson

Influence The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman

"The Elements of Copywriting" by Gary Blake and Robert Bly

"The Ultimate Sales Letter" by Dan Kennedy

Cashvertising by Drew Eric Whitman

"Write to sell " it is written by Andy Maslen

"Influencing Human Behaviour" by H.A.

"Tested Sentences That Sell" by Elmer Wheeler

"Unlimited Selling Power" by Moine and Lloyd.

Writing for Emotional Impact by Karl Iglesias

Bob Bly's "The Copywriter's Handbook"

How To Make Your Advertising Make Money - John Caples

The Copywriters Handbook - Bob Bly

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook - Joseph Sugarman

Sales Letters That Sizzle - Herschell Gordon Lewis

Cash Copy - Jeffrey Lant

Magic Words That Bring You Riches - Ted Nicholas

Ogilvy On Advertising

Method Marketing by Denny Hatch.

My First 50 Years in Advertising by Maxwell Sackheim.

The Greatest Direct Mail Sales Letters of all Time " by Richard Hodgson.

How To Write Advertising That Sells by Clyde Bedell

Ads That Sell by Bob Bly

Advertising Headlines That Make You Rich-- David Garfinkle

Magic Words-- Ted Nicholas

Robert Collier Letter Book-- Robert Collier

My Life In Advertising -- Claude Hopkins

Bird - Commonsense

The First Hundred Million by E. Haldeman-Julius

David Ogilvy's "Blood, Brains and Beer"

"Confessions of an advertising man"

"Million Dollar Mailings" by Denison Hatch

"The Wizard of Ads" trilogy by Roy H. Williams

Making Ads Pay by John Caples

Method Marketing - Denison Hatch

"How to Write Sales Letters that Sell" by Drayton Bird.

Hypnotic Writing -- Joe Vitale

"The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - by Joe Karbo

Denny Hatch's Million Dollar Mailings

I am a bookworm and just looking at this list is intimidating but I guess an artist must suffer for their craft

 

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[ChasingDream97]

google guys? coded it themselves.
facebook guys? coded it themselves
ebay guys? coded it themselves
hotmail? coded it themselves
pinterest owners? coded it themselves
microsoft? coded it themselves.
reddit?
slashdot?
yahoo?
paypal?
and the list goes on.

the major owner's wrote the first version/prototypes themselves, before they started hiring programmers.

if you want to make billions upon billions, you better learn to code!
if you are shooting for 6, 7 figures, then programming is stupid.

i wonder how true this is in 2023

 

[Hadrian]

the thing is, paying a dev is VERY expensive now days, no?

Hells Yes... although there are now no code options like Adalo where you can create it using drag and drop menus etc... just watch out for the passive income trick where you have to pay them monthly for ever. The main issues with developers is that they act like car mechanics... only here you can lose thousands and tens of thousands of dollars. I highly advise reading my thread here: Summary: If you want to get into apps you're better off learning to code and allow 3-5 years.

MEETUPS - App Developer Networking Group

Greetings Fastlaners! Indie App dev from Ireland here... I see more and more threads asking about apps so I though I'd create a shared space for us to chat and bounce ideas around. I'll try to get some established professional software dev's to give their input as well. I hope it will provide...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

Stay Safe out there!

 

[Movere]

You have some really good points!
Learning both coding and copywriting, marketing, sales is possible and you don't have to be professional and spend 1000 hours on each of them or on coding either, you can simply understand the basics of coding, learn one language for fun and research most important information about coding to understand how to outsource better and also it is now era of artificial intelligence, that can sometimes replace even coding, copywriting, therapist which means a real person to talk to, yeah, exaggerating, but it can possibly happen in the future, or more, it is already happening, it is pretty important in my opinion to learn artificial intelligence and be in the same pace with time and progress in the world.
Learn anything you want, hire freelancers, influence people and solve their problems with what you've learnt.

 

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[healthstatus]

the thing is, paying a dev is VERY expensive now days, no?

$10/hour on Upwork for an India based programmer with a PhD in computer science. I can make more than that mowing lawns and pay the developer that will write better code than a newbie will write after 3 years of trying to learn themselves.

 

[healthstatus]

Wow! 12 years after posting and this is still getting traction. Some people still think I am wrong, but nowhere in the thread has anyone come back and said, "I learned to program and wrote a killer app and sold a bunch of them".

Now people are saying they can learn a little bit then use ChatGPT to do 80% and they will do the 20%, problem is the 20% is the hardest part.

Hire a talented developer, they are getting cheaper and cheaper ($10 to $15/hour on Upwork).

To the few of you that recommended hiring a copywriter as well, that might work these days. I know more than 10 people that went from $0 to over $100k annually in earnings in copywriting in less than 6 months time.

 

[Levit]

If anyone seriously thinks they can use AI to do 80% of their coding without understanding what it outputs they are in for a world of pain lol

 

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[NervesOfSteel]

I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????

If one can afford the cost of getting a high quality app developed by an experienced programmer .. he still needs to know basics of programming ..

Sales.. its a different ball game. Some people learn sales in 1 week of door to door .. some can't even in 10k hours!

 

[healthstatus]

If anyone seriously thinks they can use AI to do 80% of their coding without understanding what it outputs they are in for a world of pain lol

It's the same people that think they can write pro level code in 3 months watching YouTube or Udemy videos.

 

[csalvato]

Some people still think I am wrong, but nowhere in the thread has anyone come back and said, "I learned to program and wrote a killer app and sold a bunch of them".

I have

Just because people aren't saying it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's more likely they are too busy making money and having and impact to come and debate this

I know more than 10 people that went from $0 to over $100k annually in earnings in copywriting in less than 6 months time.

1. I can say the same for programming. You just run in different circles and that's ok.
2. 100k isn't even a respectable wage anymore. My barber and house cleaner make $100k annually. Thanks inflation!

After years of reflection on this thread, having success of my own, and spending time with actual billionaires (with a B) and multi-millionaires, this whole 32 page thread misses the point.

If you want to be wealthy, you need to find where you can generate an outsized impact that results in compensation through cash flow or a massive rise in equity value.

To generate an outsized impact, you need to know your gifts and hone your craft. For some people, that will be doing things like writing copy. For others, it will mean programming.

After years, I can finally conclude that this question is a total red herring. Rather than asking "is learning to code stupid?" you should be asking "how can I be a force to be reckoned with?" -- and your answer will be deeply personal.

 

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[Pretty Girl]

Thanks Alty. This looks like a great list. I actually have a couple listed here but there are some that I didn't know about.

Can you kindly list couple of good books that you recommend for marketing and writing sales

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I have

Just because people aren't saying it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's more likely they are too busy making money and having and impact to come and debate this

1. I can say the same for programming. You just run in different circles and that's ok.
2. 100k isn't even a respectable wage anymore. My barber and house cleaner make $100k annually. Thanks inflation!

After years of reflection on this thread, having success of my own, and spending time with actual billionaires (with a B) and multi-millionaires, this whole 32 page thread misses the point.

If you want to be wealthy, you need to find where you can generate an outsized impact that results in compensation through cash flow or a massive rise in equity value.

To generate an outsized impact, you need to know your gifts and hone your craft. For some people, that will be doing things like writing copy. For others, it will mean programming.

After years, I can finally conclude that this question is a total red herring. Rather than asking "is learning to code stupid?" you should be asking "how can I be a force to be reckoned with?" -- and your answer will be deeply personal.

Great take, like many things on this forum, the answer is not black/white and more gray nuance.

Learning to program is a great option for some folks.
For others, not so much.

As such, we land back at those two words, "It depends."

Ultimately, learning leadership and communication is a skill everyone can leverage, no matter which path one takes.

 

[Andy Black]

I have

Just because people aren't saying it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's more likely they are too busy making money and having and impact to come and debate this

1. I can say the same for programming. You just run in different circles and that's ok.
2. 100k isn't even a respectable wage anymore. My barber and house cleaner make $100k annually. Thanks inflation!

After years of reflection on this thread, having success of my own, and spending time with actual billionaires (with a B) and multi-millionaires, this whole 32 page thread misses the point.

If you want to be wealthy, you need to find where you can generate an outsized impact that results in compensation through cash flow or a massive rise in equity value.

To generate an outsized impact, you need to know your gifts and hone your craft. For some people, that will be doing things like writing copy. For others, it will mean programming.

After years, I can finally conclude that this question is a total red herring. Rather than asking "is learning to code stupid?" you should be asking "how can I be a force to be reckoned with?" -- and your answer will be deeply personal.

Chris is back. Good to see you.

"... you need to find where YOU can generate an outsized impact ..."

Agreed. It's horses for courses. Some even call it product-founder fit, which I like.

 

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[sinfor]

I still don't understand why people here want to learn to code!

Spend that time learning to market and write sales copy. Spending 1000 hours to learn to code to spend 200 hours writing an app is STUPID.

Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money. Writing code just means you have something, but it won't sell itself.

Here is how it will work if you learn to code:
1000 hours learning to code.
200 hours writing an app.
wait for a sale, wait some more, wait some more.
Spend 1000 hours learning to market and write copy.
sell some of your app
spend 150 hours fixing bugs and responding to support issues because your app is crap because it takes 5000 hours to really learn how to code.
get frustrated and yank your app because of the PITA factor and all the bad reviews of your app.


Learn to market and write copy:
1000 hours learning to market and write code, while that 1000 hours is going on, pay someone that has 10,000 hours of training on apps to write your app.
Start marketing your app immediately.
Sell lots of your app.
Pass any support issues to the developer
Sell lots more of your app.
Create 3 more apps and market the hell out of them
Go to the bank often to deposit checks.

Do you SEE the difference????

Yes, I SEE the difference I strongly believe that basic programming knowledge is necessary. With AI tools, all the code in the world is available for you to use, which is a huge asset. This means you have an extra wide road to success.