I've got to fire my brother.

[becks22]

Maybe I am a little biased but the business I currently own used to be my Uncle's. He approached me when I was halfway through Graduate School and asked if I wanted to learn what he did. We became partners for about a year and then he retired fully and I took over completely. Besides the learning curve of actually learning how the business operates, everything went smoothly. We worked really great together and he is happy the business is still running and that he didn't have to close it and tell his clients goodbye. Business is so good, my father is starting to help me with the IT stuff. I also had a lot of positive experiences with our clients. They liked and respected my uncle and since we're family, they expect me to have the same values so they trust me. It's worked out great on both ends. Working with family can be tough but isn't impossible.

 

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[AgainstAllOdds]

Why is your business in debt?

Is it headed downhill? Can you turn things around? Is it worth operating vs getting a job?

Answering those questions is likely more important than getting advice on firing your brother. With that said, giving a family member bad news sucks. Best of luck man.

 

[Goldman snacks]

1. try get him a 'better' job and asif it would be mean to hold him back in your company
2. tell him your business is failing and that you don't pay yourself and cant afford to pay him next month, but he can stay and intern if he wants
3.have your mum softly tell him first what your situation is and you wont look like such a bad brother when you tell him
4. if you have the time frame let him nobly quit instead of you firing him

 

[biophase]

Can you turn him into an income producing employee? Have him do social media, promotions, marketing... something that brings in money to the bottom line.

 

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[Brian C.]

EDIT: I missed the point in providing advice - clearly your decision has already been made.

You can argue until you're blue in the face whether or not to hire friends/family in business because there is no correct answer. I personally avoid it, after seeing my next door neighbor's business ruined by his mother's inability to pay taxes to the IRS when she handled the books.

 

[Paul David]

I think a lot of people are missing my point. I'm sorry if it came across as if I was asking advice on firing my brother - I wasn't.

I wrote the post for people who are still unsure as to how hard it can be in business especially if you employ family and things aren't going to well.

My brothers personal background was highlighted as it added to the difficulty of the situation.

The most important thing I need to do at the moment is sort out what's going wrong in the business. My brother doesn't have a mortgage and two children to support - I do.

I've been self employed since I left school 16 years ago, I've never had anyone as a boss and im not about to start.

I must simply do whatever it takes regardless.

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[Alex H]

I think a lot of people are missing my point. I'm sorry if it came across as if I was asking advice on firing my brother - I wasn't.

I wrote the post for people who are still unsure as to how hard it can be in business especially if you employ family and things aren't going to well.

My brothers personal background was highlighted as it added to the difficulty of the situation.

The most important thing I need to do at the moment is sort out what's going wrong in the business. My brother doesn't have a mortgage and two children to support - I do.

I've been self employed since I left school 16 years ago, I've never had anyone as a boss and im not about to start.

I must simply do whatever it takes regardless.

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I have always grew up in a family business environment. It's always tough to make these decisions.

-My dad and mom was fired from my Dad's younger brother
My Dad and Mom successfully open their own business and they made a lot more money on their own.
-My older brother let my middle brother take over a business to have it go crashing
They are still brothers, but there was a lot of arguements
-My half brother (my dad's previous marriage child) never got along with my older brother
My half brother opened his own business and is raking in $$
-My older brother hired me and my middle brother again

The moral of the story is, working with family adds an extra layer but just because you have to make the hard decisions, doesn't mean you will break up the family.

Make sure you explain why its happening and remind them "You love them as family member and that will never change"

Doing this, i survived over 20 years of family business.

 

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[Paul David]

Can you turn him into an income producing employee? Have him do social media, promotions, marketing... something that brings in money to the bottom line.

As a physical product selling business like what you also run we have 1 packer, 1 customer service (my bro) one merchandiser who lists products on Website, eBay and Amazon etc and then me who I buy all new products and source new models for things we sell.

Without my brother, the merchandiser would do his customer service job which was his previous role anyway and I would do joint buying and merchandising.

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[Paul David]

Have you ever asked your brother what he wants?

I have a younger brother myself who shares similarities with your brother - he's 20. Because of my brother's anxiety and depression, I am the definition of an over-bearing brother. I want the best for my brother and I want to take care of him; at times to the detriment of his own personal growth. Lately, I've come to realize that I have unintentionally dictated facets of his life by being over-protective. He is his own person after all.

Maybe hear your brother out. Hear what he has to say. Hear his point of view and then share yours as a brother and as a business owner with him. You'll learn a lot just by listening to him.

You can argue until you're blue in the face whether or not to hire friends/family in business because there is no correct answer. I personally avoid it, after seeing my next door neighbor's business ruined by his mother's inability to pay taxes to the IRS when she handled the books.

Regardless, taking care of your family is extremely noble and your character is obvious from what I've read. I don't mean to be out of line or rude, but who knows, maybe your brother doesn't like doing what he does currently. Maybe he wants to stay on and help out without monetary compensation? Maybe he would excel in a different position?

The only way you'll know for sure is by communicating with him.

He didn't like the packing job even though I told him it was the least stressful job in the business. He wanted to do customer services so I moved him there. He moans about customers now.

It's just the way he is. If I buy a new product he'll find fault with it. Glass always half empty instead of half full unfortunately.

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[OldFaithful]

I'd like to add that, in my opinion, it seems a bit unfair to consider an employee's personal life (residence choice/debt/family obligations/bills/etc) in the decision over whom to fire. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the only thing that matters is whether the employee is getting the job done, doing it well and being a positive contribution to the company culture. Balance that with the net value their position adds to the bottom line and the decision over whom to fire should be much more clear.

Is it fair to fire employee "A" instead of employee "B" just because "A" has no kids while "B" has 6 rug rats? Does it matter that employee "C" has chosen to live at his/her parent's home or in an apartment or in a van down by the river, vs employee "D" that has a McMansion and a huge mortgage payment? If these things matter, aren't we judging the employee's personal decisions and not their work performance/behavior/value?

Just my 0.02

 

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[Paul David]

I'd like to add that, in my opinion, it seems a bit unfair to consider an employee's personal life (residence choice/debt/family obligations/bills/etc) in the decision over whom to fire. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the only thing that matters is whether the employee is getting the job done, doing it well and being a positive contribution to the company culture. Balance that with the net value their position adds to the bottom line and the decision over whom to fire should be much more clear.

Is it fair to fire employee "A" instead of employee "B" just because "A" has no kids while "B" has 6 rug rats? Does it matter that employee "C" has chosen to live at his/her parent's home or in an apartment or in a van down by the river, vs employee "D" that has a McMansion and a huge mortgage payment? If these things matter, aren't we judging the employee's personal decisions and not their work performance/behavior/value?

Just my 0.02

I completely agree. Out of the 3 employees my brother contributes the least to the business. He shows zero initiative and to be honest is constantly looking at videos on his phone. When i pull him up he says he's answered all the customer service enquiries and is waiting for more.

He wouldn't think to ask if there's anything else i need doing or spend the time looking into ways of improving the CS department etc.
The job gets done but to the barest minimum.

 

[eliquid]

I'd like to add that, in my opinion, it seems a bit unfair to consider an employee's personal life (residence choice/debt/family obligations/bills/etc) in the decision over whom to fire. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the only thing that matters is whether the employee is getting the job done, doing it well and being a positive contribution to the company culture. Balance that with the net value their position adds to the bottom line and the decision over whom to fire should be much more clear.

Is it fair to fire employee "A" instead of employee "B" just because "A" has no kids while "B" has 6 rug rats? Does it matter that employee "C" has chosen to live at his/her parent's home or in an apartment or in a van down by the river, vs employee "D" that has a McMansion and a huge mortgage payment? If these things matter, aren't we judging the employee's personal decisions and not their work performance/behavior/value?

Just my 0.02

I'm glad you brought this up, I almost did last night myself but got too sleepy.

I got the feeling some resentment might be involved with it.

 

[Mattie]

Sounds like he's an introvert. Perhaps you could request him to get some anxiety pills, learn to regulate his emotions, try meditation, music, or other techniques to handle it. I'm sure if someone guided him, he would probably be your best asset. lol I know you're probably rolling your eyes, but fortunately they say Introverts make better leaders then extroverts. For the simple reason they contemplate, think about things ahead of time, and see the bigger picture. If you're an extrovert you want action now, think of organization, structure, schedules, and add other good qualities short-term.

The Quiet book on Introverts might help you with this Dilemma and coming up with solutions. I've read plenty of articles on Extroverts and Introverts learning to work together in Business. They just play different roles. I believe sometimes Extroverts throw out the best gems for the simple reason their no looking at things from the right point of view.

Extroverts usually end up being Authoritarians and Introverts Authoritative. They are polar opposites. One Short term range and in the now, while the other long term gains and Big Picture. They see everything you don't see.

Most Extroverts see Introverts as the problem in society, in family, and business. It's amazing when you do the research how much value Introverts add to society.

 

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[Jon L]

so...when are you going to fire him?

 

[Paul David]

so...when are you going to fire him?

A letter yesterday from HMRC regarding a final warning for outstanding Corporation Tax has served as a timely reminder of the gravity of the situation.

I'm giving my brother his one week notice tomorrow AND one other employee. Four down to two. It's not ideal but for starters of an evening i'll replace the time i spend on twitter and other procrastination apps with replying to Ebay, Amazon and customer services on my mobile so there's less to do the next day. The one member of staff i have left will go back to the role he started in the company - packing and despatching orders split between customer service work.

I'll crack on with listing products we've had sitting there for months, sending more items to Amazon FBA. Anything that will improve the bottom line.

The anger with myself has now been replaced with a determination to a) Do what's needed to recover and b) serve as a lesson/reminder to never EVER get in this position again.

 

[Paul David]

Update: after speaking to my Father today he told me that he was prepared to pay my brothers wages so he wouldn't be out of a job.

He's concerned that hearing he had no job would set him back months In terms of anxiety issues etc.

My father isn't short of money, he's a paper millionaire so the money isn't really an issue for him. Plus I can't really complain about having a free full time worker.

My father also offered to remortgage one of his properties if I was in need of cash. I declined this offer as I need to reduce overheads and build again from the bottom before adding more money into the business.

So that just leaves me with having to tell one employee tomorrow (who's recently become a father for 3rd time) that he's on a weeks notice.

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[jon.a]

Update: after speaking to my Father today he told me that he was prepared to pay my brothers wages so he wouldn't be out of a job.

He's concerned that hearing he had no job would set him back months In terms of anxiety issues etc.

My father isn't short of money, he's a paper millionaire so the money isn't really an issue for him. Plus I can't really complain about having a free full time worker.

My father also offered to remortgage one of his properties if I was in need of cash. I declined this offer as I need to reduce overheads and build again from the bottom before adding more money into the business.

So that just leaves me with having to tell one employee tomorrow (who's recently become a father for 3rd time) that he's on a weeks notice.

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Why can't your father hire him and help with "your stress level?"

 

[Paul David]

Why can't your father hire him and help with "your stress level?"

My father doesn't have anything for him to do however by offering to pay his wages whilst he continues to work for me is helping my stress level.

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[jon.a]

My father doesn't have anything for him to do however by offering to pay his wages whilst he continues to work for me is helping my stress level.

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Okay

It just sounded like you have business problems and brother problems.
You can fix your business problems.

 

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[Paul David]

Okay

It just sounded like you have business problems and brother problems.
You can fix your business problems.

Yes he has his own problems but as I said on previous post he does actually do his job to the minimum. At the moment I'm focusing on the business problems and number 1 is reducing the overheads.

By this time tomorrow I will have reduced them by £2000 a month.

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[FiftySeven]

The reason God gives you family?

So you appreciate being able to pick your friends....

'57

 

[Jon L]

My father doesn't have anything for him to do however by offering to pay his wages whilst he continues to work for me is helping my stress level.

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this is only partly about the money. You need to get rid of him, now (imho). His attitude alone will bring you down.

 

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[deepestblue]

You have been in business for 16 years. You have been through a lot in that time. The most important thing you have learned, is how to get back up. And keep at it. Better days are ahead. You know this, I know this. From the perch of the new reality you create, you will look back on all of this and be very grateful for it.

 

[458]

Didn't read. Shouldn't have hired him in the first place.

 

[Paul David]

Didn't read. Shouldn't have hired him in the first place.

Thanks for that valuable piece of information.

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[biophase]

When you have to fire employees because business is not going well, it's usually the fault of the owner. The fact that you need to let go of 2 people is really all you need to think about. As the owner of the business, it is your responsibility to keep them paid. I really now think that this thread should be about how you need help turning around your business.

My employee runs my day to day operations. If sales are not coming through the door, she will have less and less to do. If it gets to the point where I need to fire her, it is my fault. I have failed her as a boss and business owner. She has no say on how we get sales.

Of course, I would fire her if I had to. But there's no way I would be thinking that it was her fault. Your brother's employee role here doesn't influence sales.

This is why I'm not really buying into this issue of your brother anymore.

 

[Paul David]

When you have to fire employees because business is not going well, it's usually the fault of the owner. The fact that you need to let go of 2 people is really all you need to think about. As the owner of the business, it is your responsibility to keep them paid. I really now think that this thread should be about how you need help turning around your business.

My employee runs my day to day operations. If sales are not coming through the door, she will have less and less to do. If it gets to the point where I need to fire her, it is my fault. I have failed her as a boss and business owner. She has no say on how we get sales.

Of course, I would fire her if I had to. But there's no way I would be thinking that it was her fault. Your brother's employee role here doesn't influence sales.

This is why I'm not really buying into this issue of your brother anymore.

Absolutely spot on. I couldn't agree more.

That's why I made the point in my original post that I felt like I was losing faith in myself. It's 100% my fault why my business is in this position.

I'm thankful for advice I've received but a lot is focusing on my brothers issues. I highlighted those to emphasize that it was a more difficult decision than usual.

Yesterday I informed my other 'non related' employee that he was on a weeks notice. In the past I've only ever had to do this to staff who weren't very good. This particular employee is great. I couldn't fault anything about him and it's not a good day when my business loses someone like that.

I've also cancelled all non essential expenses like water machine, terapeak eBay software.

I've updated my profit and loss so I know exactly to the nearest penny what's coming in and going out. I will be looking at this constantly.

Now it's time to look into the stock situation and reduce non selling lines, get stock turning around. I've already got 22 different products ready today to be collected by Ups for Amazon fba.

As you rightly pointed out @biophase this thread should now be about how I turn this business around. And I will.


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[Joshyybaxx]

Are you working on ramping up the revenue?

I see businesses cut costs to exist a little longer...sometimes it's better to bite the bullet and live or die quickly than put all that stress on something that is dying slowly but surely.

Good luck with it. I hope you're making the right moves.

 

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[Paul David]

Are you working on ramping up the revenue?

I see businesses cut costs to exist a little longer...sometimes it's better to bite the bullet and live or die quickly than put all that stress on something that is dying slowly but surely.

Good luck with it. I hope you're making the right moves.

Yes for starters I'm starting to move stock that hasn't been listed anywhere or slow selling.

Secondly sending more popular skus to Amazon fba.

My business turns over £600k a year. A combination of stock sitting there and too many overheads over a long period of time has resulted in this situation.

Never again.

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[Motivationcity]

I was going to go into detail about this but the long and short of it is I have 4 staff members including myself and I've got a cash flow problem and some serious debt issues with my business.

Currently, I've got £55,000 worth of stock, a £50,000 overdraft which is £45,000 into and I've got a £50,000 loan which I only took out in February this year. There's a £35,000 hole.

My brother isn't my best worker, he suffers from depression and anxiety. He doesn't go out or socialise however from a business point of view it makes sense for him to go. I made this decision last night. Today of all days my Mum called me this morning to tell me that my brother wouldn't be in today as he was feeling particularly anxious and that he would do his customer services work from Home.

I know what I've still got to do. It hasn't stopped me from crying my eyes out for the last hour though at the thought of telling him. He's my little brother (21). He looks up to me. And now I've got to bring this on him whilst he's got other issues.

I wish I could take a pay cut to cover his wages but I've got too many overheads to pay for and can't.

I've been in business for 16 years now and it's hard man. It keeps my knocking me down and in the past, i keep getting up but lately, it's getting harder. I'm beginning to lose faith in myself I really am. I know every decision I've made in those years has led me to this point and I will get through this and learn from my mistakes but today is a day in business which is absolute shit. (sorry for language)

Okay, This is a subject I can relate to. I had my own asphalt business for the past 3 years. I just recently got out of the business because I did not enjoy my work. But I know the problems you face it's tough out there right now for all business's. I personally think no matter family or not if he is not making your job easier and making you more money you have to let him go and do what's right for your business. As a business, owner you are responsible for doing what's right for the growth of the busniess. What I would do is, I would sit down and talk to him, just tell him the truth. He will understand he is young he need to find his own path. Simply tell him thing are really rough lately with business and you have to do what's best to keep your business alive. Hope I helped you out. I hope everything smooths itself over for you.