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I've got to fire my brother.

Paul David

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I was going to go into detail about this but the long and short of it is i have 4 staff members including myself and i've got a cash flow problem and some serious debt issues with my business.

Currently i've got £55,000 worth of stock, a £50,000 overdraft which im £45,000 into and i've got a £50,000 loan which i only took out in February this year. There's a £35,000 hole.

My brother isn't my best worker, he suffers from depression and anxiety. He doesn't go out or socialise however from a business point of view it makes sense for him to go. I made this decision last night. Today of all days my Mum called me this morning to tell me that my brother wouldn't be in today as he was feeling particular anxious and that he would do his customer services work from Home.

I know what i've still got to do. It hasn't stopped me from crying my eyes out for the last hour though at the thought of telling him. He's my little brother (21). He looks up to me. And now i've got to bring this on him whilst he's got other issues.

I wish i could take a pay cut to cover his wages but I've got too many overheads to pay for and can't.

I've been in business for 16 years now and it's hard man. It keeps my knocking me down and in the past i keep getting up but lately it's getting harder. I'm beginning to lose faith in myself i really am. I know every decision i've made in those years has led me to this point and i will get through this and learn from my mistakes but today is a day in business which is absolutely shit. (sorry for language)
 
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JoeB

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Hard thing to do but it sounds like you need to do it. Good luck.
 

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I'm beginning to lose faith in myself i really am
Is this the problem or is it your brother? Be damn sure you know which one before you do something you might regret...
 
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jpanarra

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I can't imagine this struggle. My dad had his own tattoo business where he had a cousin come and work for him. But due to family relations,;he tried to take advantage of the situation; coming in late, not doing the assigned clean-up, etc. One morning my dad just flat out fired him when he came in late... told him to go find another parlor and learn how to work first before coming in. My dad passed away last summer in a car accident, but my cousin came to me after and said that was the best thing that happened to him because since it was someone he knew and looked up to he was able to pivot and learn how to work harder...

So you firing him might be the best thing for your brother... you're just giving him a lesson is how I see it.. He might come back with some more experience and respect for you.

DO what you think is right
 

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For those that read this later...

Step 1. Don't hire friends or family, for anything from real estate representation to employment

Step 2. If you ever doubt this, refer to step 1
 

nradam123

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Bro, one of my goals is to hire my brother. It is one of the reasons why I am working my a$$ off.

Dude, are you sure that its your brothers problem?

Anyway, maybe this can be an action plan -
1) Tell him that he is getting really anxious and he is only 21. And you care for him and you want him to attempt working in a different company to get a better idea about the world (Or something like that).
2) Tell him to find a job he loves. Setup interviews for him, do whatever you can to find a job for him.
3) Don't fire him until he gets a job.
4) After that let him go.

I dont think you should even tell that he is fired. Just let him "change" for his own good. He is only 21 anyway, he has nothing to lose.

And YOU -> Fix your business man. Thats the thing you should worry about. Do whatever it takes to make it profitable, if its a sinking ship look for more opportunities.
Remember, fastlaners are made on the redline.

This is going to be the biggest learning experience of your life.

PS: Do let us know what happened, allright.
 
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nradam123

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For those that read this later...

Step 1. Don't hire friends or family, for anything from real estate representation to employment

Step 2. If you ever doubt this, refer to step 1

I follow Gary Vaynerchuk a lot. He hires a lot of people in his family.
And he said in his book [HASHTAG]#Askgaryvee[/HASHTAG] that he never keeps them in power position unless they have the skill. Every member in his family gets a position that they are good at AND also aligns with his/her long term goals.

And a lot of big companies are built by brothers. Stripe (Collison brothers), Zip2 (Musk brothers), Vayner Media (Vayner brothers). I know its more like partnership, but what do you think about that?
 

Vigilante

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I follow Gary Vaynerchuk a lot. He hires a lot of people in his family.
And he said in his book [HASHTAG]#Askgaryvee[/HASHTAG] that he never keeps them in power position unless they have the skill. Every member in his family gets a position that they are good at AND also aligns with his/her long term goals.

And a lot of big companies are built by brothers. Stripe (Collison brothers), Zip2 (Musk brothers), Vayner Media (Vayner brothers). I know its more like partnership, but what do you think about that?

I think

Step 1. Don't hire friends or family, for anything from real estate representation to employment

Step 2. If you ever doubt this, refer to step 1
 

BellaPippin

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See if you can take a softer approach, can you put it in the perspective of a... I think you need to take a break from this particular business and find one that helps you socialize more, be in a new context etc. In the meantime (let him know) that would help you lower costs. Have him know he will be also helping you that way. win-win. Which is not a lie.

From what you say the "break-up" would also benefit him as he needs to break vicious cycles. He probably doesn't socialize because he is too comfortable.

It's hard not to think you sort of HAVE to help him but maybe that push out of his comfort zone is what he needs. In a new context he might even know positive people to build relationships with that help him deal with his anxiety. See the positive in it and try to see it with those lenses rather than "I'm just cutting him off and leaving him out to dry" which doesn't even seem accurate.

Also he's 21! He has a lot to learn and one of those things is to discover that empowering feeling that he can take care of himself.
 
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IceCreamAction

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You can toss me a 200 and I'll fire him for you. Family and business don't mix but given its affecting you and its not like you can go back in the past I'd say offer him to help around still but you can't pay and if he'd prefer to just not work for free/ be involved.

Either way can't see this being an easy experience but as you've said seems to be necessary
 

Paul David

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The main issue I've decided to let him go is that I need to cut outgoings down as quickly as possible.

The problem with making it look like I'm doing him a favour which long term I probably maybe is that then he will want me to keep him on until he finds another job whereas i need him off the wage bill asap.

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nradam123

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I think

Step 1. Don't hire friends or family, for anything from real estate representation to employment

Step 2. If you ever doubt this, refer to step 1

Cmon man :/

This is of concern to me as well. I am going to get my bro to join me no matter what. Let me know sme more details about your opinion so that I can learn and adapt.
 
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Your brother is clearly in a delicate state. For his health status, it may not be the best choice initially, to fire him, due to him believing he is not good enough for his brother. However, long term I believe you would be hurting him by having him in the business. Socialization and activities is the best thing for a person with depression. Having him be anti-social and only working will only keep him depressed longer. However, if you fire/let go of him you at least give him the opportunity to work in a restaurant or somewhere where he is forced to socialize.

On the other hand, he is also learn horrible work ethic. Depression/anxiety or not, the best way to get over these issues is not by staying home. He is adapting to your lax rules with him, thus learning that it is okay to hide when he has these issues. Depression can be very long term as well. If he wants to be functional, he will have to learn on his own how to cope with this.
 

Mikkel

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Cmon man :/

This is of concern to me as well. I am going to get my bro to join me no matter what. Let me know sme more details about your opinion so that I can learn and adapt.

What is the best thing that can happen by letting him join your company? Probably get rich together, which would be fantastic.

What is the worst thing that could happen, that is plausible? He does not hold his end of the bargain and therefore begins to ruin your business.

Is it really worth your relationship with your family to have them working for you? Do what you'd like, but I wouldn't risk my relationship with people I care about.

Kobe Bryant wrote a letter to his younger self saying that he wish he didn't hire his family to be his agents. That he wishes he didn't give his family all the gifts that they wanted, because in the end it was actually killing their dreams. Enable your family to follow their own dreams, don't just hand things to them; they will never grow as a person.
 

Jon L

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I've been where your brother is. He knows he's not performing well, and its eating him up. For me, I wished I'd been fired 6 years before I actually was. He'll land on his feet eventually. He's stronger than you think.

The best way, I think, to tell him is to review where your business stands financially, and where his performance stands. If he understands that you are about to go out of business unless you let him go, it will be easier on your relationship.
 
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Vigilante

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There's an entire universe out there of people that want to work for a paycheck.

There are an estimated 7.2 billion people in the world.

7,200,000,000

Out of that,

7,199,999,990 of them you could fire without worrying too much about it if you had to.

10 out of the 7,200,000,000 people you could employ would keep you up at night if you had to fire them.

10 people on the list of people you would never want to have to fire.

And you are seriously wondering if you should hire someone from that list of 10 people

instead of just picking one of the other 7,199,999,990 people that are available?

What am I missing here? Why would you EVER consider hiring one of the 10 people in the entire world that you would be traumatized to fire?

Business is business. Don't complicate what doesn't need to be complicated.
 

The-J

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For those that read this later...

Step 1. Don't hire friends or family, for anything from real estate representation to employment

Step 2. If you ever doubt this, refer to step 1

I hired a sibling in-law to help do some work for me. The work was good, but I'll never do it again.

I would love to hire family, I really would. But money gets in the way of the family bond, unless the business IS the family lifeblood. And even then, it creates problems. Just watch Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares for proof of this. Siblings and parents and children fighting each other over what? Selling food?

It's a dream of mine to have my younger siblings do some work for me over a summer and allow them to be somewhat self sufficient. Maybe a limited time makes it a little better. But the more I think about it, the more I think that it would be a giant liability on my part, sour my relationship with my parents, and ultimately I'd come out being the dick. I don't want that.
 

Paul David

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Is this the problem or is it your brother? Be damn sure you know which one before you do something you might regret...
It doesn't matter. What matters is that I can't afford to pay him. Thats the reason I'm I've got to let him go.

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nradam123

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There's an entire universe out there of people that want to work for a paycheck.

There are an estimated 7.2 billion people in the world.

7,200,000,000

Out of that,

7,199,999,990 of them you could fire without worrying too much about it if you had to.

10 out of the 7,200,000,000 people you could employ would keep you up at night if you had to fire them.

10 people on the list of people you would never want to have to fire.

And you are seriously wondering if you should hire someone from that list of 10 people

instead of just picking one of the other 7,199,999,990 people that are available?

What am I missing here? Why would you EVER consider hiring one of the 10 people in the entire world that you would be traumatized to fire?

Business is business. Don't complicate what doesn't need to be complicated.

I got the premise of your thoughts. Thanks for the knowledge man.
 

Bellini

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Maybe you can stop paying him, but still keep him around. Who knows, he may still want to help you after all.

↑ This ↑


If at all possible, you can spare him the rejection by telling him that your business is in trouble and you are upset because you won't be able to pay him, but you would love to have him around 'if' he wants to hang out and help until he finds another job. That way he won't feel like it's personal.

I think you can slide through this without ever having to use the terms "I have to fire you" or "I have to let you go". You might not need to say that at all. Just keep the focus on the fact that you can't pay him anymore. Just my opinion.

Good luck.
 
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Paul David

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Your brother is clearly in a delicate state. For his health status, it may not be the best choice initially, to fire him, due to him believing he is not good enough for his brother. However, long term I believe you would be hurting him by having him in the business. Socialization and activities is the best thing for a person with depression. Having him be anti-social and only working will only keep him depressed longer. However, if you fire/let go of him you at least give him the opportunity to work in a restaurant or somewhere where he is forced to socialize.

On the other hand, he is also learn horrible work ethic. Depression/anxiety or not, the best way to get over these issues is not by staying home. He is adapting to your lax rules with him, thus learning that it is okay to hide when he has these issues. Depression can be very long term as well. If he wants to be functional, he will have to learn on his own how to cope with this.
To be honest this is the first time he's stayed off work today due to his issues. However out of the 3 staff I have he is the easiest replaced.

It's hard working with someone who's on a constant downer. Takes it toll. As you said quite rightly said long term it will be beneficial to the both of us.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
 
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Vigilante

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I have several of these in my rear view window.

I hired a great friend to be my stock broker. The stock market hit the shit. My broker was apathetic. He's no longer my broker. That caused him to no longer be a close friend.

I have several of these examples. It almost always ends poorly. It almost always ends with hard feelings. It almost always ends ugly.

Play for the 7,199,999,990 and take your family and friends out for dinner.
 

eliquid

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If it is bothering you so much about letting your little brother go, why don't you fire one of the other guys and show your brother if he doesn't step up, the same is coming for him.

Have you even given him an opportunity to step up yet, or do you allow him to be in a downer depressive mood this whole time he has been employed and let him coast by in life with no real push? Real leaders help improve people...

Sounds like you have been an enabler. If so, its as much your fault as his and your mom's possibly ( she did call in for him ).

Most times if you have finally saw you are at the point to having let 1 person go in your business for cashflow reasons, you really prob actually need to let 2 or 3 go in reality.
 
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Paul David

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If it is bothering you so much about letting your little brother go, why don't you fire one of the other guys and show your brother if he doesn't step up, the same is coming for him.

Have you even given him an opportunity to step up yet, or do you allow him to be in a downer depressive mood this whole time he has been employed and let him coast by in life with no real push? Real leaders help improve people...

Sounds like you have been an enabler. If so, its as much your fault as his and your mom's possibly ( she did call in for him ).

Most times if you have finally saw you are at the point to having let 1 person go in your business for cashflow reasons, you really prob actually need to let 2 or 3 go in reality.

Yes you're right it would be better if i could let 2 people go but my business can't function with only 2 people unfortunately. The fact that my business is in it's current position is not his fault. He does our customer services for website, Ebay and Amazon. By his nature he's anxious and depressed, he's been diagnosed with it.

From a business point of view and putting family loyalties aside it's him who's got to go unfortunately for the good of the business whether that makes me uncomfortable or not. I've got my own family to look after and bills to pay. He still lives at home with my parents and get's his car paid for by my Dad.
I've obviously let things slip to get to this point and i take full responsibility. Time to step up.
 

devine

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If it is bothering you so much about letting your little brother go, why don't you fire one of the other guys and show your brother if he doesn't step up, the same is coming for him.

Have you even given him an opportunity to step up yet, or do you allow him to be in a downer depressive mood this whole time he has been employed and let him coast by in life with no real push? Real leaders help improve people...

Sounds like you have been an enabler. If so, its as much your fault as his and your mom's possibly ( she did call in for him ).

Most times if you have finally saw you are at the point to having let 1 person go in your business for cashflow reasons, you really prob actually need to let 2 or 3 go in reality.
Solid point.
 

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Anxiety and in customer services?? Craziness.

I used to work for my dad, the business was struggling for years, I saw a lot of people go. My dad doesn't do the right things, blames everyone else and expects business to increase without doing anything.

A few months ago it started getting really bad and I decided I could no longer work there so I handed my notice in. I spun it that I was doing him a favour but in reality I just wanted out.

I've learnt to never work with family and friends, ironically I have a good friend working for me now, and I would rather it wasn't the case so I do know your feeling, but honestly family and work don't get on. I promoted someone up to take over my job at my dads business and he employed his cousin as an apprentice, I told him not to, and low and behold he had loads of issues, the guy wasn't interested enough, didn't work hard enough and his mum got involved too many times!! He was told to jog on just before I left.

My business is doing well but everything I'm doing is cash heavy and I do worry about paying for a friend if times get tough. But ultimately it's a business not a charity....

My dad has also previously employed various other family members (nephews etc) and every time it was a disaster.

You know what to do, just get it done and keep moving. Don't lie to him, just say you simply can't afford him and it's easier to pick up on his job rather than someone elses. I'm sure he'll understand (eventually). It sounds like you're in ecommerce as well like me?
 
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Paul David

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Anxiety and in customer services?? Craziness.

I used to work for my dad, the business was struggling for years, I saw a lot of people go. My dad doesn't do the right things, blames everyone else and expects business to increase without doing anything.

A few months ago it started getting really bad and I decided I could no longer work there so I handed my notice in. I spun it that I was doing him a favour but in reality I just wanted out.

I've learnt to never work with family and friends, ironically I have a good friend working for me now, and I would rather it wasn't the case so I do know your feeling, but honestly family and work don't get on. I promoted someone up to take over my job at my dads business and he employed his cousin as an apprentice, I told him not to, and low and behold he had loads of issues, the guy wasn't interested enough, didn't work hard enough and his mum got involved too many times!! He was told to jog on just before I left.

My business is doing well but everything I'm doing is cash heavy and I do worry about paying for a friend if times get tough. But ultimately it's a business not a charity....

My dad has also previously employed various other family members (nephews etc) and every time it was a disaster.

You know what to do, just get it done and keep moving. Don't lie to him, just say you simply can't afford him and it's easier to pick up on his job rather than someone elses. I'm sure he'll understand (eventually). It sounds like you're in ecommerce as well like me?
Yes totally agree. Yes I'm in ecommerce selling power products online. It's a cash intensive business unfortunately. Always need more money to replenish and increase product lines.

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G-Man

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I've had to fire a lot of people. On one occasion, I had to fire about 20 perfectly good people because the company was so mismanaged it was losing money and couldn't sustain the payroll. I constantly reminded myself: "No matter what, these people are out of a job. My only choice is if the rest of us end up broke with them."
 

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