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Provisional Patents - copy/paste from existing granted patents???

Hannes Grebin

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Hey guys, have a deadline for for filing a PPA on Wednesday next week due to my accountability partner publishing my invention otherwise to his 20k-subscribers.

I have a book from NOLO about it and watching some videos, but to accelerate everything, can I simply copy and paste portions of competing granted patents?

Thanks a ton!

Hannes
 
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Vigilante

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Hey guys, have a deadline for for filing a PPA on Wednesday next week due to my accountability partner publishing my invention otherwise to his 20k-subscribers.

I have a book from NOLO about it and watching some videos, but to accelerate everything, can I simply copy and paste portions of competing granted patents?

Thanks a ton!

Hannes

I wouldn't. I would go to LegalZoom and use their template

https://www.legalzoom.com/business/...isional-application-for-patents-overview.html
 

Hannes Grebin

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@Vigilante and @InnovateDesign thanks for clarifying so quick. Yes I would use some stuff and reword them as my patent is close to some existing granted one but a better solution for everyone. Will get now into the LegalZoom template as a bed time story.

One question, as I just watched a video
- Is this correct that PPAs in the UK (still European Economic Area) are for free and can also named as 'patent pending' unlike to Germany'??
 
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Hannes Grebin

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@Vigilante One last question: is their service valuable (extra 199$)? I can 3D model everything even render the looks of a typical patent drawing via Rhino3D and think I'm ok with describing everything detailed but broad enough and since this is only a PPA (as I want to start off everything with this invention and later pay a lawyer from the profits or kickstarter funding and build other products and brands around it)
 

Donna_Lee

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http://provisionalpatentvideo.com/

this guy made it clear - PM me if you like to have access




Since the clock is ticking you want to get your PPA filed online at USPTO. You can call them for help if you need it, as they welcome calls. I'm assuming you want to file your PPA in the US?

Remember , you can always file another PPA if you think of something else to include or have forgotten to include something.
No one will EVER see your PPA unless you file for a patent.
Good Luck with your invention!
 

Hannes Grebin

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Since the clock is ticking you want to get your PPA filed online at USPTO. You can call them for help if you need it, as they welcome calls. I'm assuming you want to file your PPA in the US?

Remember , you can always file another PPA if you think of something else to include or have forgotten to include something.
No one will EVER see your PPA unless you file for a patent.
Good Luck with your invention!
Both tips with calling them directly and to file an additional PPA are great, despite the fact that I want to publish the design right after filing..
 

Donna_Lee

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Yes, directly after filing a provisional patent application you can reveal your invention,and use the words patent pending on your invention.

Thanks for linking the video. It is very informative,and helpful.
 
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Hannes Grebin

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Yes, directly after filing a provisional patent application you can reveal your invention,and use the words patent pending on your invention.

Thanks for linking the video. It is very informative,and helpful.
Today I will work on my 3D-drawings and write a first draft and tmw will specify this. There is an interesting strategy to describe my invention in full detail specifying the main advantages and not really mention the prior art, right after filing you can reveal it to the public and tweak further on some details or add additional stuff which you would file another PPA - finally you would file a nPPA combining all related prior PPAs. Found IPWatchdog very keen to detail.
http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2016/08/27/patent-drafting-describing-without-puffing/id=72384/
 

Hannes Grebin

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@Vigilante and @InnovateDesign thanks for clarifying so quick. Yes I would use some stuff and reword them as my patent is close to some existing granted one but a better solution for everyone. Will get now into the LegalZoom template as a bed time story.

One question, as I just watched a video
- Is this correct that PPAs in the UK (still European Economic Area) are for free and can also named as 'patent pending' unlike to Germany'??
Checked it and it's wrong, it's more expensive to file a PPA in the UK, this guy seems also to be a scam. Very strange stories on his website.
 

Donna_Lee

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Are you planning to file a PPA in the USA? You can do this online for about $65 US. It doesn't matter which country you reside in, anyone in the world can file a PPA or Utility patent in the USA.
 
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Donna_Lee

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Don't sweat it too much.Try to explain your invention as best as you can. Make sure you include your drawings or photos of your prototype if you have one. Just get your PPA filed as you don't want to miss your deadline on Wednesday! You can always file another PPA.
Going forward (before your 1 year deadline) you will need to consult and hire a patent attorney to file a full Utility patent for you, as this is something that you DO NOT want to attempt on your own.
IP Watchdog is a good site for information,and you also may want to watch some of the Inventright videos. They are very legit, and if you think you may pursue licensing your invention, they have excellent "process" webinars for members.
 

Hannes Grebin

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@Donna_Lee thanks for your last post. Still writing. But getting more and more insights.

Just to name two additional resources:

1) Next time would rather buy for 100$ this guys 10 videos and instructions. Good Freebies as the free PPA template with instructions
http://patentfile.org/provisional-patent-example-free-download/
2) Get more a feeling that PPAs are not so difficult, just write from any angle - the more your write and describe, the better and a Non-Provisional Patent could take the content and would be rewritten by an experienced attorney. Everybody advises not to do claims at all in a PPA - so you can forget about that — sigh ;)
3) check out USPTO's PublicPair to read about final rejections on conflicting/competitive inventions

upload_2016-9-24_20-58-59.png
 
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Ultra Magnus

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So, @Hannes Grebin, did you file the patent on Wednesday as planned?

I'm bumping this thread because it gave me the incentive to finally file my provisional application (just did it today as a micro-entity, for $65 USD), and I used several resources listed here, plus others. I found it difficult to do (overall it easily took ~30 hours of work, including everything and learning enough SolidWorks to do decent drawings), but I had the advantage of similar inventions in my field from a search I paid for some time ago. One note you should take into account is that even if you do your due dilligence, applications take time to process and it might surface later on that yours wasn't first.

But, for $65 who cares? Worst case scenario is that a year later you pay a patent attorney and he does a second search and tells you you were too late. You won't spend much to discover that, and in the eventuality that everything's fine you're safe and you paid peanuts.

This dropbox package is legit, I used it throughout the filing procedure with success:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ynsp96tueh1imth/AADagLw43ALT4QyJBn8W9u0ha?dl=0

Technical note: take care to format the files you're uploading in a way they want them. In my case, everything was in pdfs, but I had to redo the drawings in SolidWorks because the ESF only accepts A4 portrait format, and mine were A3 landscape. Also, when you're exporting drawings to pdf make sure they're in black and white by switching the extra option (I don't know for sure if their software identifies whether the files are B&W by scanning the actual drawings or by reading the file signature).

Why am I mentioning this? As a novice CAD user it took me quite some time to do the changes and in the end I received my application receipt without being prompted to pay. I called the toll free number and the guy told me the site probably timed out. You can only pay for already filed applications if you're a registered user, which I wasn't (it requires sending stuff to the USPTO beforehand if you're planning on that, either by regular mail or by fax), or if you fax two forms with your CC info to the USPTO. I don't have a fax machine, so I had to file everything again. I did it swiftly and got the option to pay.

The result is that my first application will be treated as abandoned (unpaid). The second one is fine. I don't think this glitch will be a problem down the line.

It feels good to finally not have to think about legal protection. Now I can work on my marketing systems and look for the best freight forwarder for handling my shipping. I am finally free to sell my invention to the public. Phew!
 

Hannes Grebin

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@Ultra Magnus hehe! Sounds crazy good! I'm not that far but today I'm through with all the drawings, abstract, background, field etc and finally will write the main part of the description as the handling and construction. Will probably take me few days. It's a F*cking torture like my diploma thesis back in the days because writing needs me in a chilled focused mood and even when I'm bit tired it wouldn't work - did also my meditation every day to keep me in the zone. But it's well worth it. I think at some point we all have to push through some dream bubble of 'ordinary life' and stop tip-toeing but instead practise (like with swimming) the 'total immersion' :D
It's the same here the idea hanging above my head since 1,5 years and I always thought well, first I should do some good job position again and then file it and pay someone to do it.
Now I'm almost broke again (never saved anything :D) and have only the living expenses but it feels so good for the first time to never please someone else or sell projects to dumb managers that they won't understand, but do something in the FL-style and solve a problem for millions.

If you would have any additional problems with 3d again, I'm using Rhino3D and Keyshot and I'm quite fluent. So no problem with a quick 3D help or renderings! But find it great that you tackled SolidWorks (even my friend Murat was fored to buy it for 10000€ after they got his IP-adress - so keep watching out)
Talk to you on Sunday!
Happy marketing my friend!
 

Hannes Grebin

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@Ultra Magnus and thanks a lot for the package! Will have a look into it! I also asked a lot on Quora, but be aware there are mostly agents and lawyers answering and many of them raise anxieties. So we have to read between the lines ;)
 
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Donna_Lee

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Yay Ultra Magnus, you're Patent Pending!
Thanks for the info. I have to say I've been afraid to file my own PPA. I've shelled out $$$ to my patent attorney who advised me to file full Utility patent applications.
Next product idea I'm going to try and do it myself. The info provided by you,Hannes and others on this forum have given me some confidence.
 

Hannes Grebin

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@Donna_Lee and @Ultra Magnus this is the point - they play with our anxieties and ignorance on this topic!
Magnus can you give us the information whether if you take your time and write your PPA really precise would you invest the 200$ or something to have a patent agent or attorney to at least have a final look on the draft? Or did you just do it on your own and rather focus on an attorney when filing a non-provisional within those 12 months grace period?

I badly need the money for website and stuff that I want to build up instantly after filing and don't want to invest anything else that is useless, as the website http://provisionalpatentvideo.com/ I've paid 100$ but actually if you dig a bit into patent ressource sites and Quora I think this site is not worth the 100$ and rather confusing and steals time.

Thanks Magnus for your perspective on this!
 

Ultra Magnus

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I was strongly considering paying some money for the help, but if you look at any of the webistes listed in this thread (apart from the YT video with the dropbox package), they are all well-crafted sales funnels. The structure is:

1. Lead magnet - free content (articles) to make you more informed on the subject. The message? You can do it yourself, but look at all these complicated aspects of the patenting procedure! It's a real head ache! You're a newb! But you're also amitious, with a hint of perfectionism and a desire to have the formal aspects of my application seem impeccable. Sure would be nice to have someone helping you with this...

2. Buy in - luckily for you, we know our stuff, and we've prepared a no-nonsense package to help you get this done properly yourself. It's also a tiered offer, so you can get some limited consulting at higher price points, or just unload the burden and pay us to do it for you. You'll be in good hands - did we mention we teach this stuff at XYZ university, in addition to making a living from it?

3. Back-end, or the real deal - after you file the provisional with our help, who are you more likely to turn to when it turns out you want the patent several months down the line? Some other attorney, or the one who's already helped you? The one who knows you and your invention vs the one who doesn't? The one with whom you've done business before and everything went without a hitch, or some other guy?

This is clever and appeals to a strongly motivated need. To be clear, I don't fault any of this. In fact, I believe that people should be doing this type of marketing more. Look at how authoritative the attorney running ipwatchdogs seems after you become acquainted with his articles. That's how you should appear to your target market.

But, look at it this way. These attorneys' aim isn't to sell you a $100 or $200 package to help you file a provisional application. They didn't go to law school with the idea of making peanuts online. In reality, they are screening potential leads. They are making you raise your hand first, seeing how serious you are later with an offer for a small, but not insignifact sum (they could easily offer their help for $50, but that would be too non-commital). This all helps tremendously when the customer is considering paying for the target product/service, which is preparing and filing a utility patent.

Consider what's a more successful approach: this, or a webpage saying: "Experienced patent attorney $300/h, usually $10000 for your patent filed and accepted"? They want to sell a big ticket item, but they smartly recognize that trying to do so straight off the bat would be a waste of time (though at least one in the above links had the option available, just in case, which is a smart move also). They know that large customers/companies already have lawyers, or work with recommended lawyers. So the people for whom >$10000 is not a big deal they already know, or know they can't get them because they go to super expensive firms as a rule anyway. These attorneys want startups, solo entrepreneurs, hopeful licencess... Not grizzled vets.

All of the above led me to the decision to do it myself. I was unwilling to pay for a package which would take even more of my time but still require me to do all the work, and frankly, in my current situation, I was unable to justify the expense of having them do it for me "properly". I approve of their marketing and sales, but I wasn't interested in giving my cash to yet another lawyer. Remember, I had already paid a hefty sum for a patent search, which took the firm I hired a grand total of 3 hours. I just took the closest inventions that were approved by the USPTO as a frame of reference for my own application. Time will tell whether I screwed up or not. I took a calculated risk, which by now I'm quite accustomed to doing anyway.

PS. Hannes, you thanked me for the same dropbox link which you posted above, lol! I didn't know how to quote you, so I just copy-pasted it into my post. I just wanted people to know that it was legit, sorry for the confusion, I didn't actually add anything here :)
 

Hannes Grebin

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I was strongly considering paying some money for the help, but if you look at any of the webistes listed in this thread (apart from the YT video with the dropbox package), they are all well-crafted sales funnels. The structure is:

1. Lead magnet - free content (articles) to make you more informed on the subject. The message? You can do it yourself, but look at all these complicated aspects of the patenting procedure! It's a real head ache! You're a newb! But you're also amitious, with a hint of perfectionism and a desire to have the formal aspects of my application seem impeccable. Sure would be nice to have someone helping you with this...

2. Buy in - luckily for you, we know our stuff, and we've prepared a no-nonsense package to help you get this done properly yourself. It's also a tiered offer, so you can get some limited consulting at higher price points, or just unload the burden and pay us to do it for you. You'll be in good hands - did we mention we teach this stuff at XYZ university, in addition to making a living from it?

3. Back-end, or the real deal - after you file the provisional with our help, who are you more likely to turn to when it turns out you want the patent several months down the line? Some other attorney, or the one who's already helped you? The one who knows you and your invention vs the one who doesn't? The one with whom you've done business before and everything went without a hitch, or some other guy?

This is clever and appeals to a strongly motivated need. To be clear, I don't fault any of this. In fact, I believe that people should be doing this type of marketing more. Look at how authoritative the attorney running ipwatchdogs seems after you become acquainted with his articles. That's how you should appear to your target market.

But, look at it this way. These attorneys' aim isn't to sell you a $100 or $200 package to help you file a provisional application. They didn't go to law school with the idea of making peanuts online. In reality, they are screening potential leads. They are making you raise your hand first, seeing how serious you are later with an offer for a small, but not insignifact sum (they could easily offer their help for $50, but that would be too non-commital). This all helps tremendously when the customer is considering paying for the target product/service, which is preparing and filing a utility patent.

Consider what's a more successful approach: this, or a webpage saying: "Experienced patent attorney $300/h, usually $10000 for your patent filed and accepted"? They want to sell a big ticket item, but they smartly recognize that trying to do so straight off the bat would be a waste of time (though at least one in the above links had the option available, just in case, which is a smart move also). They know that large customers/companies already have lawyers, or work with recommended lawyers. So the people for whom >$10000 is not a big deal they already know, or know they can't get them because they go to super expensive firms as a rule anyway. These attorneys want startups, solo entrepreneurs, hopeful licencess... Not grizzled vets.

All of the above led me to the decision to do it myself. I was unwilling to pay for a package which would take even more of my time but still require me to do all the work, and frankly, in my current situation, I was unable to justify the expense of having them do it for me "properly". I approve of their marketing and sales, but I wasn't interested in giving my cash to yet another lawyer. Remember, I had already paid a hefty sum for a patent search, which took the firm I hired a grand total of 3 hours. I just took the closest inventions that were approved by the USPTO as a frame of reference for my own application. Time will tell whether I screwed up or not. I took a calculated risk, which by now I'm quite accustomed to doing anyway.

PS. Hannes, you thanked me for the same dropbox link which you posted above, lol! I didn't know how to quote you, so I just copy-pasted it into my post. I just wanted people to know that it was legit, sorry for the confusion, I didn't actually add anything here :)
haha [emoji23]. OK wondered about all the pages I already know and its all about the filing process..
anyways thanks so much for your in depth reply as it states exactly what I was feeling over the last days writing with them. but as I read several parents from similar prior art and even the Steven Key (The One Idea) is filing his patents on his own I will also give it a try. this is especially about a forward investment where you don't know exactly how everything turns out right after publishing it. so as I realize that the core function of a PPA and the option of a micro entity is exactly to enable an inventor to file this on his own for publication purposes and the option for better feedback without any claim loss, I will file it also on my own. as I'm rereading each portion (abstract, description etc) from every patent carefully you get more and more a clue how to craft it that it is broad enough. and even if you are specific you would have claims and would be the entitled to use patent pending. and above all you file it and get going with your ideas, learn a lot while executing and use this knowledge and hopefully gained revenue to build on it with your next ideas,as this Steven key mentions today it's rather all about first to market and establishing a unique brand selling well designed quality products. keep u updated! back to text work!
BTW. as you filed what is your idea [emoji362]?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 

Ultra Magnus

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Yeah, don't fret too much, it's already hard enough as it is to realize your business idea without getting mired in the technicalities of the legal profession. The way I see it, you do your best and the lawyer will eventually work with that. Provided you did your research and based your application on existing, granted utility patents, the attorney will probably be able to do his job at an exorbitant fee as usual.

As to your question, the whole purpose of naming my account after an 80s cartoon robot is to make it less likely that a competitor will be able to follow my business activities and decisions on a public forum (like a progress thread "hai guise, here's my sekrit plan to disrupt teh market!"). I'd feel more comfortable spilling the beans on the INSIDERS forum, but I have too much work to spend precious time taking advantage of the upgrade ATM.
 
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Hannes Grebin

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Got some huge Quora tip by this guy https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickdonohue

A Standford course Patent Law and Strategy for Innovators and Entrepreneurs (MS&E 278)
http://explorecourses.stanford.edu/...and+Strategy+for+Innovators+and+Entrepreneurs
that you can fully watch on iTunes
https://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/patent-law-strategy-for-innovators/id597710068?mt=10

Then this is the website of the professor, which I find incredible, as they grow patent portfolios of various tech and hardware startup companies they trust in http://schox.com/our-clients

Maybe I will write them after filing my PPA and the PPA not published :)
 
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Papillon

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Checked it and it's wrong, it's more expensive to file a PPA in the UK, this guy seems also to be a scam. Very strange stories on his website.

@Hannes and others who have contributed to this thread, NICE THREAD! ... could not come at a better time as I'm about to submit a PPA in the US for a very simple idea I have, I'm going to approach US companies for a license deal, the way Stephen Key teaches even though I'm from the UK.

Anyway your video post above piqued my interest and I rang this guy, and yeah your correct this info is WRONG on what this guy says...this guy is full of himself you can't get a word in edge ways, AND i ended up ringing the London Intellectual Property Office (0300 300 2000) AND they say you can NOT get a Patent Pending Free. They do NOT have a similar 1 year PPA as the USA does.
 

Hannes Grebin

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After 2 weeks of trying to file myself I've finally made it through Fiverr and with the professional help of @InnovateDesign - even beyond my initial expectations.
We successfully filed two PPAs. One is the FocusCap which I started this thread for.
Now I start to figure out how to put this life enhancer to market (kickstarter Affiliates etc). Would be glad to her your comments!
So far I'm thinking some claims "Let the world of open offices and mobile workplaces get a bit private again." "The Noise Cancelling for you Eyes" "The Mobile Coder's Cave" :)

My 1st prototype
18252396_131051897441397_448912202276012032_n.jpg


2 Screenshots from the PPA
As you see you can flat pack everything and store it in a slim bag and could decrease the amount of frontal vision for a small device (laptop) simply by folding narrower.

But the relief mainly comes from blocking out the peripheral vision as we are still cavemen in the wrong optimal living conditions and simply converting the constant peripheral movement and the caused stress response into permanent stress esp as the open office area is rapidly getting popular (saving 30% of the architectural area in offices causes by walls and people promoting instant communication). So with the FocusCap you have a cheap and solid approach that is providing you with temporary privacy.
There is much scientific data out there and I will implement and work on it further in the future (scientific studies with neurologists etc).

I'm 1 week at my grandma's in the Ukraine and my father insisted to leave my laptop home so I make a video in 1 week. Keep u updated with my journey!

Would be glad to her your brutally honest comments!

Much Love!
Hannes
 
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