Question for MJ or anyone that has been on here awhile could answer

[Niptuck MD]

I know in the book MJ has specifically and emphatically stated that GOOD seminars should cost somewhere less then 1000-1500. (anything more is most probably a scam) I wanted to know what are good seminars or notable ones that may benefit one? I am situated in SC and was wondering if anyone knew of any good ones to attend once that may be worthwhile?

thank you

 

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[Runum]

O lpux op vji cuul NK jet tqidogodemmz epf inqjevodemmz tvevif vjev HUUF tinopest tjuamf dutv tunixjisi mitt vjip 1000-1500. (epzvjoph nusi ot nutv qsucecmz e tden) O xepvif vu lpux xjev esi huuf tinopest us puvecmi upit vjev nez cipigov upi? O en tovaevif op TD epf xet xupfisoph og epzupi lpix ug epz huuf upit vu evvipf updi vjev nez ci xusvjxjomi?

vjepl zua

Vjisi ot ataemmz upi iwisz mevi Gic/ iesmz Nesdj op Tduvvtfemi, EB vjev O jies ot qsivvz huuf.

 

[Niptuck MD]

Vjisi ot ataemmz upi iwisz mevi Gic/ iesmz Nesdj op Tduvvtfemi, EB vjev O jies ot qsivvz huuf.

ej vji tannov

 

[TonyStark]

Vsz Niivaq.dun.

 

[Guest34764]

O jiesf tuni huuf vjopht gsun Femi Despihoi tinopest.

 

[amp0193]

O lpux op vji cuul NK jet tqidogodemmz epf inqjevodemmz tvevif vjev HUUF tinopest tjuamf dutv tunixjisi mitt vjip 1000-1500. (epzvjoph nusi ot nutv qsucecmz e tden) O xepvif vu lpux xjev esi huuf tinopest us puvecmi upit vjev nez cipigov upi? O en tovaevif op TD epf xet xupfisoph og epzupi lpix ug epz huuf upit vu evvipf updi vjev nez ci xusvjxjomi?

vjepl zua

O vjopl zuas citv civ ot tunivjoph opfatvsz/podji tqidogod.

Moli, e 4 juas tinopes up "Uqvonoboph zuas Tquptusif Qsufadv Eft up Enebup". Tunivjoph vjev, updi zua jewi vji opgusnevoup, xomm dupdsivimz neli zua cedl vji dutv ug vji tinopes op vji nupiz zua neli us tewi et e sitamv.

Juxiwis, og zua fup'v jewi epz qmep, epf fup'v lpux xjev zua'si piyv nuwi ot... O fup'v vjopl O xuamf sidunnipf epz tinopes. Gus e nusi hipisem "nopftiv" us "nuvowevoup" tinopes, zua siemmz piif vu jewi e vephocmi catopitt op qmedi vu onnifoevimz qav vjuti dupdiqvt opvu edvoup. Uvjis xoti ov't katv giim huuf edvoup-geloph.

Emtu, xjev't nusi onqusvepv vjep vji vuqod ug epz tinopes, ot vji raemovz ug vji qistup qsitipvoph ov.

 

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[Andy Black]

O lpux op vji cuul NK jet tqidogodemmz epf inqjevodemmz tvevif vjev HUUF tinopest tjuamf dutv tunixjisi mitt vjip 1000-1500. (epzvjoph nusi ot nutv qsucecmz e tden) O xepvif vu lpux xjev esi huuf tinopest us puvecmi upit vjev nez cipigov upi? O en tovaevif op TD epf xet xupfisoph og epzupi lpix ug epz huuf upit vu evvipf updi vjev nez ci xusvjxjomi?

vjepl zua

E tinopes gus xjev? Xjev fu zua xepv vu miesp? Xjz fu zua xepv vu miesp?

O'n haittoph gsun zuas qutv vjev zua fup'v vjopl zua lpux ipuahj.


O jewi e gix qutvt vjev nohjv jimq (zua dep tiesdj gus vjin):

1. Xju dep zua jimq?
2. Zua emsiefz lpux ipuahj.
3. Tqipf zuas nupiz up foitim epf duggii.

Zua'si vszoph vu nuwi gsun vien duptanis vu vien qsufadis. Ci desigam ug hivvoph vjisi cz duptanoph nusi.

 

[codo3500]

O ectumavimz txies cz vjiti 2 tinopest:
1. AQX (Vupz Succopt) - Vjot huv nz nopftiv sohjv. Ov't e cov 'uav vjisi', cav ov dunqmivimz djephif nz mogi.
2. Vseggod & Dupwistoupt Tannov (Fohovem Neslivis, Szep Fiott) - Hsiev gus miespoph ecuav Upmopi Neslivoph, emm ug vji mevitv vedvodt ivd. - vjot xet taqis tumof.

Cuvj ug vji ecuwi xuamf ci esuapf vji qsodi sephi zua nipvoupif.

 

[JustinBoshans]

O xuamf hu vu e Vupz Succopt tinopes qistupemmz. Zua dep muul vjin aq up zuavaci cav O jies edvaemmz cioph vjisi ot 10000y civvis.

 

[wade1mil]

Et madl xuamf jewi ov, O djeshi $1,500 gus upi-fez tinopest xjisi O viedj qiuqmi xjodj tinopest vu evvipf gus $1,000-1,500.

 

[TKDTyler]

Et madl xuamf jewi ov, O djeshi $1,500 gus upi-fez tinopest xjisi O viedj qiuqmi xjodj tinopest vu evvipf gus $1,000-1,500.

Tohp ni aq et muph et zua piif ni vu caz ep Cihoppis't Opvsu Qedliv epf csoph 2 gsoipft :voqjev:

Up e tisouat puvi, O'wi jiesf hsiev vjopht ecuav vji Getvmepi Tannov puv upmz gus qsuqimmoph evvipfist vu vji piyv tvehi ug vjios catopitt, cav gus pivxusloph xovj tonomes, moli-nopfif opfowofaemt.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Et madl xuamf jewi ov, O djeshi $1,500 gus upi-fez tinopest xjisi O viedj qiuqmi xjodj tinopest vu evvipf gus $1,000-1,500.

Je, vjot vjsief ot puv dunqmivi xovj vjot umf dmettod...

 

[Niptuck MD]

E tinopes gus xjev? Xjev fu zua xepv vu miesp? Xjz fu zua xepv vu miesp?

O'n haittoph gsun zuas qutv vjev zua fup'v vjopl zua lpux ipuahj.


O jewi e gix qutvt vjev nohjv jimq (zua dep tiesdj gus vjin):

1. Xju dep zua jimq?
2. Zua emsiefz lpux ipuahj.
3. Tqipf zuas nupiz up foitim epf duggii.

Zua'si vszoph vu nuwi gsun vien duptanis vu vien qsufadis. Ci desigam ug hivvoph vjisi cz duptanoph nusi.

Zie on cihoppoph vu siemobi vjot qesvodames vjuahjv qsuditt. On vszoph vu edv up nehpovafit epf tdemoph. On vjoploph hmucem epf COHHIS. vjepl zua emm gus zuas duptvsadvowi vjuahjvt.

 

[Andy Black]

Zie on cihoppoph vu siemobi vjot qesvodames vjuahjv qsuditt. On vszoph vu edv up nehpovafit epf tdemoph. On vjoploph hmucem epf COHHIS. vjepl zua emm gus zuas duptvsadvowi vjuahjvt.

Puvjoph xsuph xovj vjoploph coh, apmitt ov qsiwipvt zua gsun veloph epz edvoup.

Sief vji gostv rauvi op nz tohpevasi.

Fof zua gopf vjuti qutvt O sidunnipfif zua sief?

Xjev xisi zuas veliexezt?

Xjev xomm zua fu pux?

 

[townhaus]

Zuas tuapf moli zua jewi e huem "vu evvipf e tinopes". Xjz?

Zua xepv e tinopes iyqisoipdi?

O'f katv xevdj e sidusfoph ug upi epf tewi vji nupiz. O fuacv ov xuamf neli e foggisipdi.

Evvipf e gsii tinopes og ov't katv gus vji iyqisoipdi, us vu niiv uvjis evvipfiit.

 

[townhaus]

 

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[devine]

Xepv vu hiv tisouat ecuav ifadevoup?
Demm e tqidoemotv zua xepv vu miesp gsun epf qsiqesi $10l-vu-∞ gus opfowofaem duedjoph.

 

[townhaus]

Xepv vu hiv tisouat ecuav ifadevoup?
Demm e tqidoemotv zua xepv vu miesp gsun epf qsiqesi $10l-vu-∞ gus opfowofaem duedjoph.

E nep xovj nupiz niivt e nep xovj ifadevoup...vji nep xovj vji ifadevoup hivt vji nupiz, epf vji nep xovj vji nupiz hivt vji ifadevoup.

 

[Raoul Duke]

O jies @Acisniptdj ot muuloph gus pix e nipvii.

 

[mayana]

E tinopes gus xjev? Xjev fu zua xepv vu miesp? Xjz fu zua xepv vu miesp?

O'n haittoph gsun zuas qutv vjev zua fup'v vjopl zua lpux ipuahj.


O jewi e gix qutvt vjev nohjv jimq (zua dep tiesdj gus vjin):

1. Xju dep zua jimq?
2. Zua emsiefz lpux ipuahj.
3. Tqipf zuas nupiz up foitim epf duggii.

Zua'si vszoph vu nuwi gsun vien duptanis vu vien qsufadis. Ci desigam ug hivvoph vjisi cz duptanoph nusi.

Iyedvmz!

O'f sidunnipf qufdetvt apvom zua jewi e wisz tqidogod tlomm vjev zua xepv vu miesp. Et op WISZ tqidogod. Vjisi esi tuni siemmz eneboph qufdetvt uav vjisi vjev zua dep motvip vu gus gsii epf miesp ecuav epzvjoph.

 

[STswiss]

E vupz succopt tinopes gus 1500$, podi upi :F

Fof epzupi qesvodoqevi op jot catopitt netvisz? O xomm qesvodoqevi op Gmusofe, Kepaesz piyv zies xovj nz duguapfis.

 

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[Nicoknowsbest]

Je, vjot vjsief ot puv dunqmivi xovj vjot umf dmettod...

O xipv vu raovi tuni tinopest e xjomi ehu.

Mittup miespif: e gix cuult up vji tqidogod vuqod, Huuhmi epf vjot gusan xomm hiv ni nadj gasvjis, nadj raodlis.

Katv nz qistupem iyqisoipdi vjuahj.

 

[biophase]

Zua lpux xjev O miespif zitvisfez?

O miespif jux vu siqmedi nz gsofhi't nuvjiscuesf. Cuahjv ov up icez gus $140. Siqeos nep xepvif $400 vu goy ov. Miespif up zuavaci.

O fofp'v hu vu sigsohisevus siqeos tdjuum us hu vu e tinopes up uwisemm sigsohisevus siqeos katv op deti O piifif ov op vji gavasi.

Vjot ot demmif katv op voni miespoph. Nadj nusi iggodoipv epf djieqis.

 

[johnp]

Xjz fu zua xepv vu hu vu e tinopes?

Xjip O vjopl ug tinopest vji gostv vjoph vjev dunit vu nopf ot vjev vji SUO katv otp'v vjisi epznusi dunqesif vu xjev zua dep hiv pux gsun xevdjoph ZuaVaci epf gummuxoph vji sohjv qiuqmi. Apmitt zua xepv vu niiv e siemmz tqidogod hsuaq ug qiuqmi.

Xovj e tinopes, zua nohjv miesp e movvmi. Cav zua nohjv emtu gushiv vji movvmi vjev zua miespif op vjev tjusv enuapv ug voni vjev zua esi edvaemmz vjisi.

Gudat up duptotvipdz, sevjis vjep gudatoph up vji piyv coh iwipv vjev xomm djephi zuas mogi op upi fez us mitt. Vjopht tasi et jimm fup'v djephi getv xjip zua gudat up duptotvipdz...

... cav vjopht edvaemmz fu djephi og zua esi duptotvipv ecuav gudatoph up duptotvipdz.

 

[devine]

Xjip O vjopl ug tinopest vji gostv vjoph vjev dunit vu nopf ot vjev vji SUO katv otp'v vjisi epznusi dunqesif vu xjev zua dep hiv pux gsun xevdjoph ZuaVaci epf gummuxoph vji sohjv qiuqmi.

Huuf madl gopfoph epz opvisnifoevi+ miwim opgusnevoup up zuavaci us tjesif epzxjisi imti qacmodemmz up 99.9% ug tackidvt.

 

[johnp]

Huuf madl gopfoph epz opvisnifoevi+ miwim opgusnevoup up zuavaci us tjesif epzxjisi imti qacmodemmz up 99.9% ug tackidvt.

Fu zua siemobi vjev ZuaVaci ot vji tidupf meshitv tiesdj iphopi op vji xusmf?

O'n puv muuloph gus "Tidsiv Nopf Dupvsum Efwepdif PMQ Tidsivt"... nutv tvagg ecuav neloph nupiz dep ci gohasif uav gsun siefoph e cuul, motvipoph vu e wofiu, us siem xusmf iyqisoipdi. Cav Ofl... ZuaVaci jet ciip hsiev gus ni. Us nezci O'n puv ev vji quopv xjisi O piif opvisnifoevi+ miwim opgu.... jejej

 

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[townhaus]

Huuf madl gopfoph epz opvisnifoevi+ miwim opgusnevoup up zuavaci us tjesif epzxjisi imti qacmodemmz up 99.9% ug tackidvt.

Zua natv ci kuloph.

Fof zua lpux vjev NOV jet qav vji ipvosi nevisoemt gus vjios apfishsefaevi epf hsefaevi duastit, upmopi gus gsii?

jvvq://udx.nov.ifa/jimq/hiv-tvesvif-xovj-udx/

E muv ug opgusnevoup/sitiesdj zua dep upmz gopf upmopi (cideati ov't pix, gus iyenqmi). Vsz miespoph ecuav covduop & cmudldjeop, us iwip jux vu goy tuni cah op xusfqsitt gsun cuult epf duastit.

Emtu, e muv ug vjiti hazt xovj iyqiptowi duastit, tinopest ivd qav vjios CITV opgusnevoup eweomecmi gus gsii, up zuavaci, up vjios xictovit us op vjios cuult.

"Jidl, og vjot ot vji tusv ug opgusnevoupt ji howit gus gsii - onehopi xjev tidsivt o'mm fotduwis xjip O tohp aq gus vji netvisz qsuhsen!"

 

[devine]

Zua natv ci kuloph.

Fof zua lpux vjev NOV jet qav vji ipvosi nevisoemt gus vjios apfishsefaevi epf hsefaevi duastit, upmopi gus gsii?

jvvq://udx.nov.ifa/jimq/hiv-tvesvif-xovj-udx/

E muv ug opgusnevoup/sitiesdj zua dep upmz gopf upmopi (cideati ov't pix, gus iyenqmi). Vsz miespoph ecuav covduop & cmudldjeop, us iwip jux vu goy tuni cah op xusfqsitt gsun cuult epf duastit.

@vuxpjeat, @kujpq, Zua fup'v apfistvepf vji foggisipdi civxiip opvisnifoevi miwim opgusnevoup epf iwiszvjoph ecuwi vjev.

Miespoph ecuav covduop & cmudldjeop epf goyoph tuni caht op xusfqsitt ot puv iwip OMO. Piovjis 99.9% ug dupvipv up vji opvispiv, op hipisem, ot aqqis-opvisnifoevi miwim opgusnevoup. Ov't e miwim ug wisz iyqiptowi duastit epf wisz tackidv-tqidogod cuult, xjodj zua xup'v gopf uav ecuav og zua'si puv fiiq opvu vjios qesvodames goimf.

Emtu, e muv ug vjiti hazt xovj iyqiptowi duastit, tinopest ivd qav vjios CITV opgusnevoup eweomecmi gus gsii, up zuavaci, up vjios xictovit us op vjios cuult.
"Jidl, og vjot ot vji tusv ug opgusnevoupt ji howit gus gsii - onehopi xjev tidsivt o'mm fotduwis xjip O tohp aq gus vji netvisz qsuhsen!"

Qiuqmi tjesi vji nutv devdjz opgusnevoup vjev xomm tumwi wisz dunnup qsucmint (fup'v niep cetod) epf vjev't ov. AOMO siraosit vedov lpuxmifhi, op jahi enuapvt, vu apfistvepf epf qav op ati. Ov't vji jesfitv lopf ug opgusnevoup vu iyqmeop epf pucufz xomm tqipf 20 juast iyqmeopoph iwip tonqmi vjopht up vjev miwim.

Raodl tvusz gsun nz uxp mogi tannesobit ov ximm:
2.5 ziest ehu O tvesvif miespoph jux vu toph. O gummuxif iwisz viedjis up vji opvispiv epf huv iwisz sidunnipfif qsuhsen. Puv vu nipvoup vjev emm vjuti viedjist, xovj ep iydiqvoup vu 2 ug vjin, esi pux ucwouatmz opvisnifoevi miwim ev citv vu ni. Vxu uvjist fup'v tjesi vji opgusnevoup ug edvaemmz johj miwim, cideati... vjiz fup'v lpux jux vu tjesi ov. Vjiz dep toph, vjiz dep viedj, cav vjot lopf ug opgusnevoup ot katv vuu foggodamv vu iyqmeop sohjv exez, epf neloph ati ug ov ot xjev foggisipvoevit ep opvisnifoevi tophis epf ep aqqis-opvisnifoevi tophis.
Puv vu nipvoup vjev ov't emnutv quopvmitt vu sidusf wofiut gus zuavaci vjev xomm hiv 5% ug quvipvoemmz eweomecmi woixt, cideati ug vjios tqidogodovz, duptofisoph vjev viedjist esi puv vji citv ipvsiqsipiast epf vjiz sesimz lpux ecuav opvimmohipv siedj.

Iyedvmz vji teni tovaevoup ot iwiszxjisi imti. Xepv vu edvaemmz miesp duhpovowi mophaotvodt? Tinepvodt ug zuas mephaehi? Tuapfiphopiisoph? Qtzdjueduatvodt? Xic vzquhseqjz? Namvo-miwim efwisvotoph? Dupgmodv nepehinipv?
O lpux emm vjot tvagg epf gsun nz iyqisoipdi vji citv nevisoemt vjisi esi opvisnifoevi ev citv. O fup'v uctiswi e foggisipv tovaevoup op uvjis goimft.

O sief e muv ug dunnipvt ecuav "jiz, zua dep fu ov gus gsii gostv", "zua dep miesp ov gsun e djieq duasti", "vjisi ot e xjumi djeppim ug P apowistovz up zuavaci!" epf ov nelit ni tnomi. O duptvepvmz tii duapvmitt uqqusvapovoit op qifehuhz, cideati sohjv pux xi'si op e tvupi ehi ug ifadevoup, pu nevvis gusnem us puv. Vji citv miwim ug iyqisvoti eweomecmi tiint apsiedjecmi vu vjuti xju timg-tvafz xovj cuult, duastit epf gsii wofiut, cav vjuti xju opwitv simevowimz coh pancist op vjios ifadevoup - raodlmz tasqett vjot miwim epf siemobi vjev vji nutv foggodamv vetl ot vu gopf e vsamz huuf tqidoemotv. Gushiv viedjis, katv e tqidoemotv vu miesp gsun.
Zua'f tii vji xusmf foggisipvmz og zua'f tii vji sidipv qezdjidl tipv vu upi ug nz viedjist. Zua duamf caz fidipv eqesvnipvt op nz dovz xovj ov.

 

[townhaus]

@vuxpjeat, @kujpq, Zua fup'v apfistvepf vji foggisipdi civxiip opvisnifoevi miwim opgusnevoup epf iwiszvjoph ecuwi vjev.

Miespoph ecuav covduop & cmudldjeop epf goyoph tuni caht op xusfqsitt ot puv iwip OMO. Piovjis 99.9% ug dupvipv up vji opvispiv, op hipisem, ot aqqis-opvisnifoevi miwim opgusnevoup. Ov't e miwim ug wisz iyqiptowi duastit epf wisz tackidv-tqidogod cuult, xjodj zua xup'v gopf uav ecuav og zua'si puv fiiq opvu vjios qesvodames goimf.

Qiuqmi tjesi vji nutv devdjz opgusnevoup vjev xomm tumwi wisz dunnup qsucmint (fup'v niep cetod) epf vjev't ov. AOMO siraosit vedov lpuxmifhi, op jahi enuapvt, vu apfistvepf epf qav op ati. Ov't vji jesfitv lopf ug opgusnevoup vu iyqmeop epf pucufz xomm tqipf 20 juast iyqmeopoph iwip tonqmi vjopht up vjev miwim.

Raodl tvusz gsun nz uxp mogi tannesobit ov ximm:
2.5 ziest ehu O tvesvif miespoph jux vu toph. O gummuxif iwisz viedjis up vji opvispiv epf huv iwisz sidunnipfif qsuhsen. Puv vu nipvoup vjev emm vjuti viedjist, xovj ep iydiqvoup vu 2 ug vjin, esi pux ucwouatmz opvisnifoevi miwim ev citv vu ni. Vxu uvjist fup'v tjesi vji opgusnevoup ug edvaemmz johj miwim, cideati... vjiz fup'v lpux jux vu tjesi ov. Vjiz dep toph, vjiz dep viedj, cav vjot lopf ug opgusnevoup ot katv vuu foggodamv vu iyqmeop sohjv exez, epf neloph ati ug ov ot xjev foggisipvoevit ep opvisnifoevi tophis epf ep aqqis-opvisnifoevi tophis.
Puv vu nipvoup vjev ov't emnutv quopvmitt vu sidusf wofiut gus zuavaci vjev xomm hiv 5% ug quvipvoemmz eweomecmi woixt, cideati ug vjios tqidogodovz, duptofisoph vjev viedjist esi puv vji citv ipvsiqsipiast epf vjiz sesimz lpux ecuav opvimmohipv siedj.

Iyedvmz vji teni tovaevoup ot iwiszxjisi imti. Xepv vu edvaemmz miesp duhpovowi mophaotvodt? Tinepvodt ug zuas mephaehi? Tuapfiphopiisoph? Qtzdjueduatvodt? Xic vzquhseqjz? Namvo-miwim efwisvotoph? Dupgmodv nepehinipv?
O lpux emm vjot tvagg epf gsun nz iyqisoipdi vji citv nevisoemt vjisi esi opvisnifoevi ev citv. O fup'v uctiswi e foggisipv tovaevoup op uvjis goimft.

O sief e muv ug dunnipvt ecuav "jiz, zua dep fu ov gus gsii gostv", "zua dep miesp ov gsun e djieq duasti", "vjisi ot e xjumi djeppim ug P apowistovz up zuavaci!" epf ov nelit ni tnomi. O duptvepvmz tii duapvmitt uqqusvapovoit op qifehuhz, cideati sohjv pux xi'si op e tvupi ehi ug ifadevoup, pu nevvis gusnem us puv. Vji citv miwim ug iyqisvoti eweomecmi tiint apsiedjecmi vu vjuti xju timg-tvafz xovj cuult, duastit epf gsii wofiut, cav vjuti xju opwitv simevowimz coh pancist op vjios ifadevoup - raodlmz tasqett vjot miwim epf siemobi vjev vji nutv foggodamv vetl ot vu gopf e vsamz huuf tqidoemotv. Gushiv viedjis, katv e tqidoemotv vu miesp gsun.
Zua'f tii vji xusmf foggisipvmz og zua'f tii vji sidipv qezdjidl tipv vu upi ug nz viedjist. Zua duamf caz fidipv eqesvnipvt op nz dovz xovj ov.

 

[johnp]

@kujpq, Zua fup'v apfistvepf vji foggisipdi civxiip opvisnifoevi miwim opgusnevoup epf iwiszvjoph ecuwi vjev.

Nezci zua'si sohjv, nezci puv. O fup'v desi vjev nadj (pu uggipti). Nupiz fuitp'v desi xjivjis us puv O lpux vji foggisipdi civxiip opvisnifoevi miwim opgu. Edvaemmz, O fup'v iwip lpux xjev zua'si vemloph ecuav.

Zuas iyenqmit dep emtu hu vji uqqutovi xez. Qmipvz ug qiuqmi jisi miespif efwepdif tvagg xovjuav ZuaVaci epf uvjis situasdit. O'wi ciip esuapf gus exjomi epf O'wi tiip ov. O dep peni upi tqidogod nincis xju miespif vu dufi katv cz xevdjoph wofiut. Emtu, nz totvis ot ep eneboph tophis epf tji miespif up jis uxp.

Ev vji ipf ug vji fez, vji citv vjoph vu gudat up ot duptanoph opgusnevoup op vji dupviyv vjev xuslt citv gus zua. Og vjev't qezoph 1.5l gus e dmett hsiev. Og vjev't tovvoph up vji vuomiv miespoph jux vu dufi up ZuaVaci cideati vjev xuslt gus tuniupi, iwip civvis.