Lex DeVille's - I Deleted My Upwork Account...

[Lex DeVille]

I'm deleting my Upwork account to start over from scratch to prove the freelance market isn't as saturated as everyone believes. The reason you can't get work isn't "market saturation". It isn't "fake" clients. It isn't Upwork's algorithms being "mean" to you or that you're brand new and don't have any feedback or a portfolio. It's that you aren't doing the work to stand out and help people.

You can still go from $0.00 to $1,000+ per month or more and get your first taste of sales and entrepreneurship fast. But it won't happen by spamming applications hoping something sticks. It won't come from getting mad at Upwork because you feel entitled to gigs. It won't happen by doing anything other than helping other people get sh*t done.

So I'm going to delete my Upwork account in about a week when I finish work on my copywriting crash course. For now this thread is a placeholder. I'll video document progress through YouTube and post here, so if you want to tag along, feel free to watch this thread and maybe pick up some pointers that help you in some way.

Later.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

How will it get done?

I appreciate your initiative in this and you setting out on this path, but this post is rather useless unless you actually share anything of value. Great a placeholder. Thanks.

Don't worry, I'll give exact steps so you can copy it into an ebook and post it on LinkedIn when I'm done...

Also, when you use the word "but" right after a statement like, "I appreciate your initiative," it cancels the sentiment and tends to piss people off. But that's a copywriting lesson and this is a freelance thread and I wouldn't want to post anything useless so you should probably ignore this post too.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

So just a little update...

Remember, this is from my FIRST proposal and I sent it before I even had anything in my profile other than the basic bio so I could get signed up.

My offer to the client:

I'll make a few free samples for you based on your business and if you like them we'll go from there. Since Twitter & Instagram posts are short I'll do them for $2 each after that.

I ended up sending 2 Instagram posts and 3 Twitter samples.

This morning the client responded:



Let's recap...

I said those posts were FREE and now I'm getting $30 which is over $5 per sample piece when my offer was $2 per post. I'm getting a contract from a business that was on Shark Tank and got a deal with 2 Sharks (Barbara and Mark) and all of this within 72 hours of launching a brand new account on Upwork.

So what's your excuse now?

P.S. 10 to 15 people applied. 7 Got interviewed. 1 got hired.

 

[JAJT]

I was doing upwork for a bit last year. Copy work for Amazon products.

I don't know how anyone can claim it's too saturated because I was being literally flooded with work requests. It was very quickly becoming obvious that it would be in excess of a full time job if I let it.

My entire profile consisted of the required fields, a few tests, a photo, and 2-3 examples in my portfolio.

On top of that - almost every single copy client was sending me multiple pieces of work after the first successful job. One guy tried giving me over 80 projects at once "to start" after my second deliverable to him and his team. Many of them were asking me to go off upwork to work for them directly to increase my pay by cutting out upwork from the equation. Others wanted me to transition to their other non-amazon work (web copy, etc...)

I actually ended up finishing up the projects I had on the go, kept my favorite "occasional work" client, and turned my account off. I didn't enjoy it enough to turn it into a full time job. It was a really fun little ride though.

Then after turning my account off I even got a few folks reaching out to me on linkedin and skype asking if I'd take them on.

Anyone who wants to get into this needs to just hop in and get on with it - worrying about saturation may be an issue when you are about to invest thousands into a project but for something that is free and takes an afternoon to setup just dive in and give it a try... You'll likely be pleasantly surprised at how easy it will be to get work going.

 

[Andy Black]

Yes, but.

 

[Fox]

Thought experiment...

The guy who has had (and who will again have) massive success on UpWork creates a thread with lots of value. He will post great content and commit to it with more results over time. People are interested and the thread is already gaining momentum.

The guys who suck at UpWork come on to a thread, offer zero value, let us all know this can't work for them but also want the-instant-success-steps-TM in the very first 10 words.

Now... I wonder if these two different groups of people are approaching other areas with the same mindset and beliefs!!?

I don't even need to see other UpWork threads or progress stories - you can already see the difference here between the doers and whiners.

 

[Lex DeVille]

Hey guys, just wanted to bring up a couple of points about Upwork, especially for new guys who might be doing this for the first time after reading this thread:

1. Upwork is easy money.
And for that reason it's easy to get comfortable with Upwork and spend a lot of time trying to find that big dream client who keeps income rolling steady for a while. Be careful because this can be a trap. You make a little money, then you make a little more, but eventually you struggle to move up to higher rates or go beyond the limitations Upwork imposes. And even if you find one of those big clients, it's still easy to get swept up in the idea that $1000 or $2000 a month is good pay, so you strike a deal and soon you have a full-time job at $10/hr. Hooray...or something like that...

2. Upwork is a job.
It's not uncommon for guys who start on Upwork to get stuck on Upwork. Not forever maybe, but over the last few years I've seen it multiple times. There's a tendency to want to stick with Upwork because it's what you know. Again, this is a sign of getting comfortable and it can be a trap that holds you back from bigger cash and clients. Use Upwork as a jumping off point, but be real about why you went there in the first place. If it was to start copywriting, start an agency, start a web design business etc., you're better off outside of Upwork in the long-run. Don't let comfort become an excuse.

3. Full-time income is like a sparkling unicorn...
Another trap of Upwork is the idea of making $100/hr or $1000 a week or "steady full-time income." It's like this thing you know is right around the corner but it somehow eludes you. And that's a problem because it makes you want it more. So you spend a lot of time applying to gigs and constantly tweaking your profile and trying to solve the enigma of Upwork so you can finally have that full-time pay and quit your job or whatever.

But it's not so easy to earn full-time income unless you have a sellable skill, can sell yourself, and follow the Upwork rules. Some people go in search of these mythical levels of pay (which really aren't all that high) for years, and end up accidentally postponing their fastlane dreams, or fooling themselves into believing Upwork can be "fastlane." Suddenly you've got 5 years behind you, wondering wtf happened and where you went wrong. Why are you still right where you started?

4. What's your purpose on Upwork?
This is probably the most important one for me. When I started on Upwork the first time, it wasn't to do it long-term. It came on the heels of a failed publishing company. I did it to build up cash so I could try to make a fastlane business. Upwork has never been my fastlane pursuit and I don't recommend it as yours either. In fact, copywriting isn't my fastlane pursuit either. Both of these are tools I use to build up cash and keep my bills paid while not being bound by a job so I can take bigger swings with other business ideas, whatever those may be.

So what's your purpose with Upwork? You need to get real with yourself. Acknowledge Upwork as the tool it is and get a little experience. But also acknowledge when it's time to move on. Acknowledge you could spend the same time sending emails or cold calling outside of Upwork and instantly double or triple your income. The same skills you use on Upwork are needed by businesses all over the world. If your purpose is to run an agency or write copy or whatever, start thinking about the next level. How will you go beyond? How will you scale? How will you impact magnitude?

If your purpose on Upwork is to earn cash so you can do something else like ecommerce or inventing or building an app, then figure out how much you need to earn so you can get started on that other thing. When you hit that point, then it's time to start. Be mindful with your cash. Just because you have some doesn't mean it's there to spend. Use it wisely. You want to build a business, it's time to start thinking and acting like a business owner.

5. Remember your dream.
Upwork and other freelance platforms can suck you in with their seductive nature. Use them to fuel your dreams, not to replace them. When getting gigs starts getting easy, it's probably time to consider why you're still there, and how comfortable you'd be pitching clients if you didn't have that platform tomorrow. Comfort is a dream killer. Just remember that. Remember your dreams and always move towards them. Don't get stuck on a treadmill running in place going nowhere...

 

[JAJT]

Whenever I send a proposal or cold email I feel like a disgusting robot who just wants a sale.

Have you tried keeping your proposals casual?

People like casual a LOT more than they like corporate robot talk. I try to never talk in "corporate speak" when I talk to clients.

"Hey, just read your job and think I can help here. I'll warn you up front - my account is pretty new but I have tons of off-upwork experience and I guarantee I'll kick a$$ on this for you. Obviously unlimited revisions are a given and you wouldn't pay a dime if we aren't on the same page on any given project. I'll be honest - I want to find people that are easy to work with that love the hell out of the stuff I give them, that's really my only goal here. Happy to answer any questions, hit me up if this sounds good to you, cheers"

(I would obviously tailor the above to a real job and I probably laid the casual on a bit thick to prove a point but you get the idea).

Embrace the casual. Stop talking like a robot. They need to read your offers and proposals and think you are a human. People love working with other people. People hate working with corporate america.

 

[Lex DeVille]

Okay, it only took half a day, but I finally got it deleted. F me, I can't believe it was such a pain in the a$$ to delete my account. Glad I decided to do it now instead of waiting for next week.

This video is mostly running through basic setup. Still a few good takeaways. I got approved in like 10 seconds, so if you've been rejected at sign up you may wanna watch.

 

[Lex DeVille]

You won't fail, there is no such thing as failure, only learning. However don't think you can get by without "learning" a whole lot before you succeed.

Please stop spamming my progress thread and wasting other people's time. Both of those are things you said you wouldn't do in your own progress thread.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

you're competing with the 3 who actually bothered to read the job details

Yup, I love using "trip wires" in my briefs.

"After applying, please indicate whether you prefer Star Wars, or Star Trek (or neither) and why. Thanks!"

Immediately disqualifies 90% of the applicants.

Marked NOTABLE.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

You guys are ridiculous for thinking I'm lying.

I don't believe you are lying.

You're just "uber" delusional. There's a difference.

And now, you've been banned from replying any further in this thread.

Back on topic.

 

[Lex DeVille]

Here's today's video. It's my entire thought process as I write a proposal.

This one's kinda long, but you'll experience the process from start to finish if you've got the will to finish and can deal with my nearly-mental head chatter. >)

P.S. Don't bother stealing my proposal for a template. I guarantee it won't work for you.

 

[Lex DeVille]

This was my major takeaway as well.

I didn't enjoy it enough to keep at it but I KNOW if I'm up against the wall I can do upwork full time for likely more than I can make finding a traditional job relatively easily.

This is one of the biggest reasons I don't care so much about taking big risks anymore. When you know you can make full-time income from anywhere in the world by like tomorrow...those other worries and hesitations just sort of fade away.

Originally I was just gonna post this progress on YouTube -- it wasn't specifically for the forum, but I'm sure some here will find it useful too. The people in the market I'm targeting aren't Fastlane entrepreneurs per se. They don't understand the mindset yet, unlike so many posters here. But I mention the Fastlane Forum in a lot of my videos so some end up making their way here anyway. The point is, the people I'm making these videos for DO make all kinds of crazy excuses, with market saturation being one of the most common, followed closely by, "there's no high paying clients" and "I can't get jobs."

 

[Lex DeVille]

Last night I was looking over Upwork and a copywriting gig caught my eye, so I applied. My profile wasn't even built yet. No samples. No tests. Nothing but the basics from when I got set up on video yesterday.

Today I got a response.
One proposal. One response...

That's crazy considering how saturated Upwork is...and how saturated copywriting is...and that it's impossible to stand out or find clients.

Also, this client was on Shark Tank and got a deal with 2 sharks. So if I take the gig after further discussion, I guess that puts me in a pretty nice position considering this is the FIRST proposal I sent out.

I sent out a second one just a while ago and recorded my whole entire process. Should have it uploaded in just a bit.

 

[Lex DeVille]

A few days ago my client asked about how I prefer to get paid and suggested $25 increments for every 5 social media posts they use. They also asked for a minor adjustment to one of the photos I sent. It was the perfect opportunity to bring up feedback and secure my first 5 stars. Here's how I did it...

"I'll have the logo adjustment back to you in just a bit. Also, I'm fine with $25 idea. One question - once we reach the first $25, would you be okay closing out the first contract and leaving feedback? That will help me soooooo much to pick up clients because feedback is super important. After that we could do an ongoing contract with milestones so you don't need to close them out again and again."

Notice how I stressed the importance of feedback without asking for 5 stars. I planted a seed in the mind about what might happen to me if I don't get good feedback because it's very important. Notice also how I added value for the client at the end of my request. The result is below.

 

[Lex DeVille]

That was my main problem, I was constantly trying to get expertise but everytime either the client was asking for way too much, offering too little, or the jobs were filled with applicants or already taken.

Let's be real here, Upwork is saturated, that's not an excuse, it is all my experience being as objective as I can from observing how it works for an entire year.

It's a waste of time and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

lol, told you guys people are saying this...

The problem ain't the system. The problem is your mind.

But maybe you're right and I'm wrong. Maybe I won't get any clients and won't go any higher than a few dollars.

Guess we'll see. >)

 

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[Lex DeVille]

I turned a piece of work in this morning. A few hours later a response popped up on my phone and it freaked the sh*t out of me, because I thought I was about to get an earful of YOU SUCK! It started, "Lex. Warning, this is going to be kind of a long message..." you can read the rest below.



It took me two days to write this guy's product description.

This is over-delivering.

But what does it really say?

1. My writing is worth every penny of what I pitched him.

2. He's going to give me good feedback.

3. When we first talked, he asked if my proposed rate was the best I could do. I told him if he just needs 2 product descriptions, I can do them for $35 this time and if he needs more later on I can offer a packaged deal for a higher number of descriptions at a better fixed rate for him.

Now that I've proven myself, he's comfortable offering more work. So I might ask for 10 product descriptions next time and give him a price of $33 per description. It's barely lower than what he's paying now, and I'll ask for payment up front. That way, I'll secure more money faster than if I just let him do 1 or 2 at a time, and he'll save money over the long-run, which is important for smaller startups. So it's valuable for both of us.

10 descriptions at $33 = $330 which would put me almost halfway to $1,000 in my first month, which is half of a full-time earner's monthly income for a $24k/year salary.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

Picked up a 3rd client right after making my latest Upwork video.

Here's a look at my stats after 1 week on Upwork from scratch...



Seems I get viewed as much as others. Interviewed less than others. Hired wayyy more than others. Applied to 14 jobs, so that's an average of 2 per day. Got hired for 3 so that's a new client for every 4.7 applications. Also here's something interesting from the most recent client. He wanted an expert but listed a $5.00 price. Notice my proposed rate...





And here's where we settled...




Someone asked on YouTube last night what's an appropriate rate per 100 words for a project that will be 2500 to 3500 words, because they don't want to ask for too much and lose the client. My response was an appropriate rate is whatever you've got the guts to try.

If it doesn't work, so what. Get a new client. Try again.

I can't tell you what to set your rates at. I don't even charge per word because for me that's a waste of time. But I'm not at your skill level, and I'm not afraid of taking risks. I find ways to be valuable for clients, then command the price I want based on that value. If they don't want to pay, no problem. I'll be valuable to someone else who will.

Oh, and also I got 2 invitations my first week, but declined both of them because they weren't a fit for me.

 

[Lex DeVille]

This morning I got invited to a gig. A couple pages of web copy for $250. I accepted the invite, and set my rate at $500. I sent a couple questions, then waited for a response, and refreshed the project page a couple times. I noticed the interview count increasing. First to 3 then to 4 then to 5.

So I withdrew my proposal and sent a message saying I don't compete for bottom dollar so I'm withdrawing. A few seconds later I got a response. Now we're discussing his project.

Though I haven't decided to work with him yet, I wanted to mention it because this is part of why I withdraw from so many jobs. Anytime I withdraw I get a chance to send a message. That's 1 more message than every other person who applied. 1 more chance to get attention and stand out. 1 more chance to be in the right place at the right time, with the "right stuff."

At this point he's made several small commitments. He's responded to my questions, and feels like I'm someone with standards (by the way you should totally read Seth Godin's blog on standards from this morning) and that sets me apart from everybody else. Now he's having to prove to me why I should work with him. Not the other way around. Just the way I like it.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

PS My question - you obviously have proven that without being an expert on UpWork, you can be successful. Could you share what's in it for you? If not that's fine. I would like to know what motivates you now.

Thanks for the comments. Your question is a double-edged sword and by that I mean there's more than one answer.

To be totally open, eventually (when I get around to it) I'll sell a course on Freelancing to my tribe. It's gonna be a while tho, cuz my copywriting course already cost nearly 4 months and was only supposed to take 1. Building something of value takes time.

To that end, starting over with freelance was both an opportunity to prove naysayers wrong, and to generate new eyes, new clients, and potentially new opportunities all of which it has accomplished. It's kind of funny because already several others have attempted to follow suit or at least mentioned it. Funny how that works...

Another reason is simply to stay relevant. How can I teach a course on how to go toe to toe with freelance or copywriting if I'm not in the trenches? If I'm not in the game, I can't see things from the ground level through the eyes of others who might be brand new to this. That's important to me because I want to be able to relate to those who come to me for help.

Lastly, it's an easy way for me to create value and help other people. It's not just forum members watching my videos or following this progress. Others are coming through channels like YouTube and discovering me for the first time. A guy from Russia reached out on Facebook after watching my videos to say thanks, and that's really important because it's a clear marker of how far my value extends. Now it's not just the Fastlane forum. It's a wider global scale of impact.

Bottom line...

I'm motivated by helping people and making money in exchange - staying relevant, pushing myself, and breaking my own boundaries. I'm also motivated when people follow me because they want to, because it adds something useful to their lives instead of just more noise.

 

[Lex DeVille]

Thanks, but that was in NLP before it even came to copywriting. Stop talking and get to working so I can get to that post on linkedin.

#ignored for ignorant statements...

For anyone else reading this, the concept of neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) began in the 1970s. I wasn't born until 1987 so I can't say with absolute certainty that people sold things with words prior to that, but I'm pretty sure they did.

 

[MidwestLandlord]

The Enneagram, like you said, lets you take it to another level. It's just one more way to gain a deeper look at how others see the world.

It's also a great way to learn about yourself.

My apologies for the slight thread jack here @SinisterLex

For y'all studying the Enneagram: I think at the very least, especially when it comes to sales, empathy, and rapport, if you can learn just enough to be able to identity the "center" of the person you are dealing with, it will help immensely.

It's not necessary to be able to know each person's number type. But the Enneagram's fall into one of three centers, which will tell you enough.

They come in many different names, but here are the one's I use:

Head Types.
The thinkers. The one's stuck in their heads. Often looking for someone to follow and give them step-by-step directions. (types 5,6,7)

Emotional Types.
Usually emotional. Often seem illogical. Often looking for reasons bigger than themselves. "My boss will be so proud of me if I can make this happen!" (types 2,3,4)

Instinctual Types.
Shoot from the hip. Get it done. Action. "How much will this cost?" "When will it be done?" (types 8,9,1)

Of course, they all have their subtleties (a 9 is much more relaxed than an 8 for example) but overall, it's a good place to start.

And just for the record, 8's are the best of all the types

End thread jack...

 

[Lex DeVille]

I honestly don't see this Upwork stuff as worth the time.

I can put in a few months of work and get a 100k plus job with the same amount of time that I would put into Upwork and get less than half the money.

I understand the working from home aspect, but the time you put into it still feels like a job.

If that's true, why did you make this post:

I read through some of his copywriting threads and applied his principles and I got a freelancing gig. It's nothing huge, but for someone who has not seen progress in a long time any movement forward means so much.

Progress Thread - God Bless Sinister Lex

Your post would get more likes if you went and got that job and showed people how you did it along the way.

 

[Ronak]

I never posted about it, but last year, I experimented with Upwork just for the heck of it. Fresh account, no portfolio, etc. Just glancing over your posts and roughly applying your guidelines, I submitted a handful of proposals over about 30 mins or so.

Without really trying made over $500 working about 9 hours on stuff that was actually enjoyable. Not actively pursuing it anymore, but its good to know that there's a way to make quick cash if I were so inclined.

 

[AndrewNC]

I'm deleting my Upwork account to start over from scratch to prove the freelance market isn't as saturated as everyone believes.

I see what you're doing here, and I don't like it.

And...

I mean but...

I mean, I don't know.

Bump.

Looking forward to see the progress

Oh yeah, this is where I was going with this.

I remember a number of years ago this personal trainer purposely made himself 70 pounds overweight and he gained a lot of attention through the mainstream media for that.

Go big or go home brotha! It's time to up the stakes:

1) Delete upwork.
2) Donate all your money to charity.
3) Buy a plane ticket to the middle of Africa without cash or a passport.
4) Record your journey to the top.

 

[Sadik]

My original reluctance to join these freelance sites was reddit. I read that it's pointless trying to compete with people in third world countries who will work for nothing, and it stopped me dead from trying it out. Stupid.

This!

Reddit is so full of freelancers who keep saying Upwork is shit or scam! Case in point, look at this discussion I had on reddit only 3 days ago!



And I am so sick and tired of this "third world country" BS. I am from India and I make more per hour than a majority of so called "First World" Upworkers. It's like there are a billion people here and if you saw many poor freelancers, you club everyone like we are a factory output or something. Sorry for the rant, but I get really pissed off with this oh you are from the third world B.S.

By the way back to point. If you are a Freelancer and understand marketing, you can also make a living without using any of the freelancing sites. I do that too. But Upwork is just a "convenient" place for starters.

 

[1step]

"Upwork is too saturated"
I posted a copywriting job recently and got less than 10 applications - plenty of my jobs go unfilled and must be reposted because there are no good candidates within the first 3 days (design, code, copywriting, everything!). Upwork isn't too saturated and if you think it is you probably haven't been on the hiring side of it.

In the past I have hired 3 copywriters from upwork who applied for my jobs. After the initial job, the next time I contact them a few weeks or months later they are always booked up for several weeks. Theres so much work available to them they no longer have to post applications to jobs. They are constantly contacted by people willing to pay them $50-125 an hour and naturally their hourly rate keeps climbing.

But go on and tell me how upwork is too saturated and you can't make any real money on there

 

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[Waspy]

And here's where we settled

I think this happens way more often than you think. I've only posted a handful of jobs on upwork, but I intentionally lowball my budget. I have found that people will simply match my budget no matter what I'm asking for. Anyone matching my very low budget is automatically excluded because clearly they haven't paid any attention to the work required (and probably haven't even read the brief). So the offers that come in closer to what I would expect (usually close to double my budget) are the ones I pay attention to.

It's kinda an easy way of shortlisting for me...

 

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[Lex DeVille]

Update time.

I pretty much stopped with Upwork after reaching full-time income again. I've had a little extra free time this week so I decided to pick up some extra work in a different area from my normal niche. This led to some pretty crazy events happening. Some bad. Some good.

Client 1

The first client I applied to responded pretty fast. He wanted to get on Skype, but didn't want to do a call. Text chat is a red flag for me, and usually I drop clients right there. For some reason I ignored that and after we talked I offered $100 per page. He tried to counter. Using my Super Villain magic I rejected his counter and secured the gig.



From our convo I could tell he didn't know jack shit about copy or his female market. So I polled my own female network and came up with the info I needed to craft a product description that would make his goods shine. I spent several hours on it, then sent it to him on Upwork.



Instead of trusting me as an expert, he wrote the comment above. A guy who doesn't know how to write copy is telling me that my copy doesn't sell his leggings (he never tested it). The product is for women. A guy wouldn't buy it. So of course it wouldn't blow him away. So I ended the contract right there and ditched his a$$.

Client 2

After that I was feeling kind of bummed about writing. I'm 100% sure that last description was killer, but rejection still sucks. Anyway, a little later another one of my proposals followed up. She LOVED the FREE sample I sent the day before, and asked if we could get on a call. I agreed.

During the call we talked about her needs and about her store's challenges. She said she needed help with around 93 product descriptions now, and 50 to 80 every 2 weeks moving forward, plus weekly newsletters and other copy.

When I was sure I could help her, I ended up offering a rate of $100 per product description up to 500 words. She only wanted 100 word descriptions, and tried to suggest $20 per. I explained that the price is the price per page, not per word.

Ultimately there were a lot of long pauses and finally she agreed. When I got off the phone with her, I flipped over to my calculator and ran the numbers. 93 x $100 = $9,300. Add in the weekly newsletters and it easily crosses $10k. And that's when it hit me. 50-80 descriptions every 2 weeks. This client is not a $10k/year client. She's a $120,000+ client.

She's the single biggest copy client I've pulled. Straight from Upwork.

Key Takeaways:

• Don't work with people who won't get on a call
• If a client turns out to be shit, end the contract before you deliver the work
• You can't get high rates if you don't pitch high rates
• You can't get the biggest best clients without getting on a call
• On the call I slowed my speech wayyyy down to match the client
• Just because someone counters with a lowball rate doesn't mean you have to accept

 

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