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What's your motivation to do things if you don't need to make money.

MTF

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Great question. I appreciate you posting about it as this topic has been on my mind for a long time.

And just to be clear, I'm dealing with the same problem. I'm not judging you at all in this post.

Also, I apologize if my post is a little scatterbrained as it's a big topic to tackle and I'm still developing an understanding of it.

First, I wanted to quote Michael A. Singer:

Why would I get out of bed if I'm already happy? Because love wants to express itself. Enthusiasm wants to create and do something. Now you're not acting out of need, pain, problems. You're acting out of joy, beauty. You're driven by a whole another choice.

According to him, this state can be achieved only if we let go of all preferences (if we surrender). If the world needs to unfold according to your likes/dislikes, then you'll be busy manipulating the world and never actually interacting with it as it is. It'll be all self-serving, not serving the world as it is.

For example, imagine you pass a homeless person and give them money. They don't even acknowledge you. Next time you pass a homeless person, will you still give them money or decide it's not worth it? If it's the latter, it means you're giving money as a transaction ("here's 5 bucks, now make me feel good I helped you"). You're not acting out of your higher self (love/joy/enthusiasm/contribution) but out of your lower self (expecting the homeless person to make you feel better which is manipulative and disrespectful).

One of the fundamental concepts of what Michael A. Singer is teaching is letting go of your preferences (likes/dislikes, wants/things you want to avoid) which are built when you create patterns called "samskaras". These samskaras are created when you can't handle the situation unfolding in front of you. For example (another quote):

I'm driving behind a car that's driving slow. My mind is noticing and causing me a hard time. What good is that? The answer is: zero. You're getting aggravated, uptight, you're not enjoying your drive, you're being negative about the person in front of you, etc. In three weeks when you see a similar car you'll avoid it again. You created a samskara. Then you see the person of a certain gender, age, race, and you create a prejudice. You just made the situation make you worse. How about we use this moment as a learning experience? As a trial? I'm gonna use this experience to not do this. I'm going to use this experience to let go of whatever is inside of me that's causing my mind to think like that.

So in this example you can condition yourself to feel anger each time you see, say, a red convertible because THESE DICKHEADS ALWAYS CUT ME OFF. Based on what happened in the past, now you avoid every red convertible and hate every owner of such a car. You create a new reality in which every red convertible is out to get you.

I don't want to go too deep into it as I'm nearing 100 pages of notes of Singer's teachings. It all relates to each other, explaining all the concepts in great detail. But the example above is a good simple explanation of creating patterns and how they affect our life.

In your case, you're conditioned to enjoy the act of creation (in the area of business/investments) only if it stimulates the stuff you've stored inside you, namely, making money.

You created a pattern in which you want to act only if you can get something specific back. If you couldn't make money on your Airbnb tiny homes idea, you don't want to do it. You made it conditional. You live in a reality in which it makes sense to contribute only if you can make money, even if you don't need it. In other words, you're only happy to create something if the world unfolds according to your preferences.

I have no idea when and how you created this conditioning, but for me it was probably out of growing up in a relatively poor household with a lot of uncertainty. As a kid, I couldn't handle it. I saw my parents struggling financially and I decided that the only reason to do anything is to make money as this solves the most pressing problems. This is why I still crave security which I believe money will give me. Note that it doesn't matter how much money you make. Because of this stored pattern from childhood you ALWAYS need more. The solution isn't the outer world, but changing the inner world (letting go of this pattern).

Michael A. Singer prescribes noticing this resistance and letting it go. It's good that you're asking yourself this question because you're becoming aware that something doesn't make sense here. If you can observe this urge and not let it dictate your life, you can start freeing yourself of it.

In the example of the red convertible, each time you now see one and start feeling angry, you observe the feeling but don't act on it. Eventually, you'll retrain yourself and start seeing red convertibles as something neutral, in the same way, as, say, white SUVs are to you now.

So coming back to that first quote, if you get rid of your patterns, you're going to act out of love, contribution and enthusiasm, without any expectations or conditions. You want to act on your Airbnb tiny homes idea because it'll be fun and it'll contribute positively to other people. You DON'T do it under the condition that it makes x amount of money. You start serving the world which is infinitely more satisfying than trying to get something out of it.

I like to compare it to being in a relationship. If you feel lonely single, you CAN'T have a good relationship. The reason is that you'll look for another person (the outer world) to solve a problem you have inside (feeling lonely). The relationship you'll have, no matter how great it'll make you feel initially, is NOT the solution because it'll be conditional ("as long as you make me feel not lonely, I enjoy the relationship").

One more quote:

I'm looking for something or looking to avoid something - then I can't interact with you. I'm interacting with me. My consciousness is buried in me. And I'm going to look at you in relation to me. Are you giving me what I want? Are you being the way I want? Are you making sure you're not giving me what I don't want?

While you have it inside of you (the blockages), you cannot be you. You have to be it. It's owning you.

The spiritual path is about liberation. You free yourself from these patterns inside of you, therefore you free yourself to be okay. You free yourself to be open all the time. You free yourself to enjoy the moment that's unfolding in front of you instead of defining the moment that has to be unfolding in front of you for you to enjoy it.


This is what essentially we're dealing with now when we look at business. We're owned by the pattern that a business needs to give us x money back, even if we no longer need it. We aren't free to just do what is fun and would contribute to the world. We're prisoners to our own conditioning.

So what's the solution? The solution is to let go of this pattern. Obviously this is easier said than done. We've spent our entire lives conditioned to believe that business needs to be all about money. But look at guys like Elon Musk or Richard Branson. I'd venture to say that neither of them create new businesses to get anything out of it.

Elon Musk wants to solve big problems (you can argue he's in it for the challenge but I think he just wants to contribute) and Richard Branson starts new businesses when he sees industries where customer experience sucks (so he's all about creating a positive change).

I read biographies of both of these guys and what's interesting is that neither of them, even when they were young, seemed to be motivated by money. They were both in it for pretty much the same reasons they are today. So perhaps they didn't build patterns around this specific area of life?

So I think that a good exercise is to be aware and let go each time you feel resistance to the idea of building something without getting a (determined by you) amount of money from it. Slowly, you can get rid of this blockage and start acting out of pure motives rather than have a transactional approach.

And maybe you'll discover you don't want to do it anymore—and that's fine as well. Nobody says you have to keep building businesses or investing just because you've been doing it all your life.

As an everyday example of how to let go, I was recently in a barbershop with some incredible art on the walls. I asked the owner about it and it turned out she actually created the pieces. I was blown away. This was SPECTACULAR work.

In my head, I was like "Why the hell are you working in a barbershop if you have such a talent? Why don't you become a professional artist?" But I didn't tell her that. It was my problem, based on the patterns I have.

For her, art is something fun she often does with her friends. She told me they meet up every week and just chill out as they create art. I still find it hard to believe that people do this just for fun, without any expectation or financial motives. But this is a great example of how everyone can teach us something. She approaches art from a very pure place. She doesn't have any patterns stored related to art.

Meanwhile, I don't want to write any more books if I can't make money off them. And to be honest, I would do very little creative work without proper compensation. And here we're back to the work of letting go. Until I fully let go of it, I'll continue looking at the world in a distorted, self-serving, and ultimately not really satisfying way - all because of what I have stored in my head.

This is why I'm retired at the moment. I don't think it's a good idea to keep investing money, time, and effort into something I delude myself will give me something I should find in myself.
 

biophase

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I've been thinking about this alot lately because I'm now at the point where I truly think that I have enough. But I'm not 100% certain yet. And it's also not as much as people may think. I know that is weird to say, but as you get older, you actually need less and less money. It's an odd place to be in, where your motivation for doing things ever since you were a teenager suddenly disappears.

I made this post in July 2020 (HOT TOPIC - How would you spend $1 million dollars and get no sellable value from it?). As you can see, this idea of spending money and having enough has been on my mind for a while now.

Then, someone recommended this book to me a month ago, (BOOK - Book discussion: Die With Zero) and it basically reinforced what I had already been thinking.

Getting back to how much is enough. That's a tough question. I'm going to be 50 this year and if I estimate that I'll live till 90, that's 40 more years of spending money. However, let's do some math here. If I had $4M, I could spend $100k a year. Many of you may think that $100k a year is not enough. However, if you factor in investments, real estate appreciating, rent increases, it's pretty clear that one could spend alot more than $100k a year and still have a substantial amount at age 90. So in reality, I could probably spend $150k a year on $4M. Now let's assume that I had $6M. Well now it's truly a no brainer. I mean $200k a year for the next 40 years with no living expense?

Now imagine if I continue to work 5 years. During this time I will increase my net worth and then have only 35 years to go. So now my yearly spend number increases to $250k-$300k? It's sort of going in the wrong direction. This is why I'm pondering all this right now. Just before I turn 50, and not 55 or 60.

So where is this going? Well, the funny thing is that alot of the things I have wanted to do was money motivated. And without the money part, I wonder if I still want to do them.

For example, I've always wanted to buy land and build tiny homes on them. Buy why did I want to do this? Well, the building part was cool and the finished product is cool too. But the last part is where you put them on Airbnb and make $200/night x 350 nights = $70,000. Multiply that by 5 tiny homes and you got $350,000/yr coming in. Again the dream was money based. What else would I do with them? Leave them empty? Sell them?

So I'm wondering if I should still but land and build Airbnb tiny homes, IF I don't care about what they can bring in. What is the purpose of this project then? Is it a hobby that I'd do regardless of monetary consequences? That's a question I haven't answered yet.

People tell me, you should buy bitcoin... but why?
You should buy XXX stock, but why?
You should buy real estate in XXX, but why?

Why should I if there is no money motivation?

This past week me and @snowbank went around Sedona looking at lots and new construction. I am trying to look at things without a money lens, but it is so hard. When you stand on a lot that is asking $300k. You look at the beautiful views. But then you ask, how much does it cost to build, how much does the next house over sell for? Then you do the calculations in your head. Hmmm, if I buy this and build this, it will be worth this and I can sell it for this. But should any of that really matter if you want a house of your dreams on this lot?

I guess I'm trying to get to the point where I don't make decisions based on money. And I don't mean I waste money. But the potential profits or future value of things really shouldn't come into play anymore, if I truly have enough net worth today.

I'm curious to know so I ask @MJ DeMarco, what is the purpose of your day trading? Is it a fun game you play? Is it something you do to keep your mind sharp? I assume that the day trading returns are a small percentage of your net worth/cash flow?

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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I'll eventually bore you all with Michael A. Singer's quotes

Not me, keep 'em coming.

To me, it's the final layer of freedom. Experiencing the life as it unfolds and being fine all the time.

Yes, what struck me in Singer's work was the simple phrase, "Unconditional happiness."

The stories he used to exemplify that process really made that phrase come alive ... that you ALWAYS have the ability to be happy, no matter what the world is throwing at you. The world will be the world. Life will go on, the earth will continue to spin, not matter how much you resist.

The example he used was the guy who had his girlfriend leave him. He was miserable for months, until she came back and regretted the decision. Then he was happy. In other words, he's letting external stimuli dictate happiness when in fact, the happiness is always there. Nothing physical occurred, it was purely mental.

We've become accustomed to letting external factors dictate our happiness ... when this, when that...

Even my step son...

He said this other day as he was in a bad mood.

I'll be happy when I'm ripped. (He's in decent shape, but not ripped.)

In other words, I'm going to be miserable in my youth every single day until I reach some external vanity goal. And then when he reaches it, it will be another distant goal... I'll be happy when I get that hot girlfriend, that awesome job...

Lost is happiness.

Lost is the now.

One day, we wake up and realize life has past us by reaching for transient happiness, when the pure happiness was there all along.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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Great post Kenric, I'll add some thoughts later, but to answer your questions below...

I'm curious to know so I ask @MJ DeMarco, what is the purpose of your day trading? Is it a fun game you play? Is it something you do to keep your mind sharp? I assume that the day trading returns are a small percentage of your net worth/cash flow?

I love the challenge. It's like a big puzzle. I look at it as a form of a time-based rental, instead of real estate, I'm renting capital and selling insurance. Yes, it helps keep my mind sharp and I will likely do it until I'm physically or cognitively unable.

I assume that the day trading returns are a small percentage of your net worth/cash flow?

Relatively speaking, yes -- but the amount I earn on it is significant enough to continue, especially when I hear people spending $300K on real estate to earn a positive cash flow of $300 bucks monthly. For me, that just seems so absolutely ridiculous, especially because that 300K is not liquid.

I can take that $300K and make $5K - $20K/mo trading options. And I'm always liquid, even in a bad trade. For me, that's freedom knowing I can sell everything (my publishing business, the forum, etc.) and still generate significant cash flow. BTW, I have a paycheck pot as well that pays monthly dividends, but that account RARELY, I repeat, RARELY beats my active trading on the monthly basis, and it is subject to 10X the risk.
 

biophase

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Last night my friend and I went to see the Suns playoff game. We got courtside seats, row 3. This was both of our first times being courtside. So like going to any event, we walk in and we proceed to our seats. My friend is asking, do you want to get food before we get to our seats. Little did we know...

We get to our seats and we don't have our wristbands, so we walk back up the tunnel to get them and the lady says, the Ultra Club is just behind your seats. Umm ok. We walk into the Ultra club and it basically looks like a buffet restaurant. But there is no cashier. So we are wondering, is all this free? And yes it was, even the alcohol is free!

I'm so glad we didn't get food before we sat down!

So below is us getting our steak and tacos. They had every kind of food there, pizza, sandwiches, pasta, desserts, ice cream, snacks, etc...
image0 (1).jpeg

They even had clams, mussels, crabs and lobster!

image3.jpeg

I cannot stress how big of a game changer this was. I was able to go use the bathroom during timeouts and make it back to the seat before the game restarted. Whenever I wanted a snack, I just walked around 50 feet from my seat and just grabbed a Coke and a cookie. It was like being at home walking to the kitchen during any game stoppage. Then during half time instead of sitting in our seats, we just sat at a table in the club and munched on food.

In this photo you can see how close the court and this club was. For reference the two people standing in the tunnel about 10 feet behind our seats in the third row!

image1 (2).jpeg

So why I am posting this here? Well it's because of this conversation we had with a couple sitting next to us in this buffet.

The lady was telling us that they have season tickets and that she doesn't even cook dinner because they just come here just eat 40 times a year. Imagine you're like, what should we do for dinner. I don't know, is there a game tonight? Let's just go to the game and eat.

That is some FU money. It was kind of motivating for me!

Also as an FYI, rows 3 and 2 courtside and basically the same. Row 1 is exponentially better. That's my next goal.
 

Andy Black

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Great question. I appreciate you posting about it as this topic has been on my mind for a long time.

And just to be clear, I'm dealing with the same problem. I'm not judging you at all in this post.

Also, I apologize if my post is a little scatterbrained as it's a big topic to tackle and I'm still developing an understanding of it.

First, I wanted to quote Michael A. Singer:

Why would I get out of bed if I'm already happy? Because love wants to express itself. Enthusiasm wants to create and do something. Now you're not acting out of need, pain, problems. You're acting out of joy, beauty. You're driven by a whole another choice.

According to him, this state can be achieved only if we let go of all preferences (if we surrender). If the world needs to unfold according to your likes/dislikes, then you'll be busy manipulating the world and never actually interacting with it as it is. It'll be all self-serving, not serving the world as it is.

For example, imagine you pass a homeless person and give them money. They don't even acknowledge you. Next time you pass a homeless person, will you still give them money or decide it's not worth it? If it's the latter, it means you're giving money as a transaction ("here's 5 bucks, now make me feel good I helped you"). You're not acting out of your higher self (love/joy/enthusiasm/contribution) but out of your lower self (expecting the homeless person to make you feel better which is manipulative and disrespectful).

One of the fundamental concepts of what Michael A. Singer is teaching is letting go of your preferences (likes/dislikes, wants/things you want to avoid) which are built when you create patterns called "samskaras". These samskaras are created when you can't handle the situation unfolding in front of you. For example (another quote):

I'm driving behind a car that's driving slow. My mind is noticing and causing me a hard time. What good is that? The answer is: zero. You're getting aggravated, uptight, you're not enjoying your drive, you're being negative about the person in front of you, etc. In three weeks when you see a similar car you'll avoid it again. You created a samskara. Then you see the person of a certain gender, age, race, and you create a prejudice. You just made the situation make you worse. How about we use this moment as a learning experience? As a trial? I'm gonna use this experience to not do this. I'm going to use this experience to let go of whatever is inside of me that's causing my mind to think like that.

So in this example you can condition yourself to feel anger each time you see, say, a red convertible because THESE DICKHEADS ALWAYS CUT ME OFF. Based on what happened in the past, now you avoid every red convertible and hate every owner of such a car. You create a new reality in which every red convertible is out to get you.

I don't want to go too deep into it as I'm nearing 100 pages of notes of Singer's teachings. It all relates to each other, explaining all the concepts in great detail. But the example above is a good simple explanation of creating patterns and how they affect our life.

In your case, you're conditioned to enjoy the act of creation (in the area of business/investments) only if it stimulates the stuff you've stored inside you, namely, making money.

You created a pattern in which you want to act only if you can get something specific back. If you couldn't make money on your Airbnb tiny homes idea, you don't want to do it. You made it conditional. You live in a reality in which it makes sense to contribute only if you can make money, even if you don't need it. In other words, you're only happy to create something if the world unfolds according to your preferences.

I have no idea when and how you created this conditioning, but for me it was probably out of growing up in a relatively poor household with a lot of uncertainty. As a kid, I couldn't handle it. I saw my parents struggling financially and I decided that the only reason to do anything is to make money as this solves the most pressing problems. This is why I still crave security which I believe money will give me. Note that it doesn't matter how much money you make. Because of this stored pattern from childhood you ALWAYS need more. The solution isn't the outer world, but changing the inner world (letting go of this pattern).

Michael A. Singer prescribes noticing this resistance and letting it go. It's good that you're asking yourself this question because you're becoming aware that something doesn't make sense here. If you can observe this urge and not let it dictate your life, you can start freeing yourself of it.

In the example of the red convertible, each time you now see one and start feeling angry, you observe the feeling but don't act on it. Eventually, you'll retrain yourself and start seeing red convertibles as something neutral, in the same way, as, say, white SUVs are to you now.

So coming back to that first quote, if you get rid of your patterns, you're going to act out of love, contribution and enthusiasm, without any expectations or conditions. You want to act on your Airbnb tiny homes idea because it'll be fun and it'll contribute positively to other people. You DON'T do it under the condition that it makes x amount of money. You start serving the world which is infinitely more satisfying than trying to get something out of it.

I like to compare it to being in a relationship. If you feel lonely single, you CAN'T have a good relationship. The reason is that you'll look for another person (the outer world) to solve a problem you have inside (feeling lonely). The relationship you'll have, no matter how great it'll make you feel initially, is NOT the solution because it'll be conditional ("as long as you make me feel not lonely, I enjoy the relationship").

One more quote:

I'm looking for something or looking to avoid something - then I can't interact with you. I'm interacting with me. My consciousness is buried in me. And I'm going to look at you in relation to me. Are you giving me what I want? Are you being the way I want? Are you making sure you're not giving me what I don't want?

While you have it inside of you (the blockages), you cannot be you. You have to be it. It's owning you.

The spiritual path is about liberation. You free yourself from these patterns inside of you, therefore you free yourself to be okay. You free yourself to be open all the time. You free yourself to enjoy the moment that's unfolding in front of you instead of defining the moment that has to be unfolding in front of you for you to enjoy it.


This is what essentially we're dealing with now when we look at business. We're owned by the pattern that a business needs to give us x money back, even if we no longer need it. We aren't free to just do what is fun and would contribute to the world. We're prisoners to our own conditioning.

So what's the solution? The solution is to let go of this pattern. Obviously this is easier said than done. We've spent our entire lives conditioned to believe that business needs to be all about money. But look at guys like Elon Musk or Richard Branson. I'd venture to say that neither of them create new businesses to get anything out of it.

Elon Musk wants to solve big problems (you can argue he's in it for the challenge but I think he just wants to contribute) and Richard Branson starts new businesses when he sees industries where customer experience sucks (so he's all about creating a positive change).

I read biographies of both of these guys and what's interesting is that neither of them, even when they were young, seemed to be motivated by money. They were both in it for pretty much the same reasons they are today. So perhaps they didn't build patterns around this specific area of life?

So I think that a good exercise is to be aware and let go each time you feel resistance to the idea of building something without getting a (determined by you) amount of money from it. Slowly, you can get rid of this blockage and start acting out of pure motives rather than have a transactional approach.

And maybe you'll discover you don't want to do it anymore—and that's fine as well. Nobody says you have to keep building businesses or investing just because you've been doing it all your life.

As an everyday example of how to let go, I was recently in a barbershop with some incredible art on the walls. I asked the owner about it and it turned out she actually created the pieces. I was blown away. This was SPECTACULAR work.

In my head, I was like "Why the hell are you working in a barbershop if you have such a talent? Why don't you become a professional artist?" But I didn't tell her that. It was my problem, based on the patterns I have.

For her, art is something fun she often does with her friends. She told me they meet up every week and just chill out as they create art. I still find it hard to believe that people do this just for fun, without any expectation or financial motives. But this is a great example of how everyone can teach us something. She approaches art from a very pure place. She doesn't have any patterns stored related to art.

Meanwhile, I don't want to write any more books if I can't make money off them. And to be honest, I would do very little creative work without proper compensation. And here we're back to the work of letting go. Until I fully let go of it, I'll continue looking at the world in a distorted, self-serving, and ultimately not really satisfying way - all because of what I have stored in my head.

This is why I'm retired at the moment. I don't think it's a good idea to keep investing money, time, and effort into something I delude myself will give me something I should find in myself.
Blimey. I’m going to have to reread this a few times.

I already enjoy what I do, and it pays my bills. I get satisfaction just out of doing it.

Years ago I used to run track. Everything was timed. Back then our performance, and happiness, was defined by the time on a stopwatch. Now when I look back at my favourite memories running on the track they were *not* when I was timed. They were during a training session coming off a bend and catching my (much faster) training partner. Or the last leg of a 4x400m relay with the club screaming themselves hoarse and where the time for each leg was irrelevant anyway.

I remember going for a bike ride and my speedometer telling me I was only doing X miles an hour. I ripped it off and threw it into the undergrowth and enjoyed the countryside instead.

I was obsessed with “getting my knee down” when I started riding motorbikes. That obsession nearly killed me multiple times. One day an older biker asked “Are you smoooth Andy? Are you smoooooth?” Huh? When did I stop enjoying a 4 hour bike ride because I couldn’t find a bend I could get my knee down round?

I’m not sure where I’m going with this, and had to scroll back up to remind myself of the question in the thread title again.

I’m *not* in a position that money is no object. If I stopped working now then I’d know about it in a few short months.

It doesn’t really matter to me though. I don’t make decisions based on how much money it will make me. I can’t stand SMART goals and what they stand for. I’m not into numbers (odd for a mathematician and given what I do for a living).

I like my current lifestyle (apart from the lockdown which gives me hardly any time in the day to work on my own stuff as the kids are home schooling and I’ve not figured out how to combine the both yet).

Like I think I mentioned above, I was asked years ago “If money was no object then what work would you be doing?” and then “What’s stopping you?”

Since then I’ve been very conscious of building a business that suits me and what I want to do and not to conform to anyone else’s model.

I’m 50 this year too. I don’t want to build FU money to leave to my kids. I want to leave them with FU Unscripted mindsets and the ability to eat what they kill. I want them to retain their childlike delight at the world and not have to put up with the negative nancies and complaining charlies because they can walk away and make their own sunny little worlds. That would be my greatest achievement: Be the man I want my sons to grow up to be.

My wife recently asked our 12 year old who his hero was. He looked at me and said: “That’s easy. Dad.” Dayum, that’s powerful stuff.

I’ve no idea if any of that rambling helps.
 

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I guess I'm trying to get to the point where I don't make decisions based on money. And I don't mean I waste money. But the potential profits or future value of things really shouldn't come into play anymore, if I truly have enough net worth today.

I don't know you too well but it already seems like you do make lots of non-money choices all the time.
- You are big into looking after dogs
- You bike and hike a lot
- Where you live and how you live

This is a really interesting thread and I can't wait till see what others will post too.

I have been struggling a lot with this same topic this year. I read about some squirrel who went nuts (literally) and just kept collecting more and more nuts. Eventually some human found his stash and it was like a hundreds of thousands of nuts stored up ha. He literally had enough food for several squirrel lifetimes but was still collecting more.

I think we all have this same mechanism inside us - the constant need (maybe fear) to always have more.
What if x happens or what if I want y. It can be a lot easier to focus on making more money than to answer the bigger deeper questions about what we are really here for and where it will all end.

Something that helped me was to list out everything I would really want if money was no issue. I tried to imagine I had a lot of money and what I would do after the initial buzz went away.

It was things like:
- get in great shape
- learn a combat sport to a high level
- read 100s of books
- learn a foreign language
- stretch and mediate
- get outside more in the wild, hike, swim, climb etc
- more time with close friends and family
- surf / snowboard / skydive

The funny thing is most of this list really requires very little in terms of money. It is more about freedom and facing the fear inside me that prevent me from doing this - the inner squirrel who wants to just get more nuts.

Of course I am not saying we all go live in the woods and catch wild fish but I think at the same time a lot of what we really want doesn't require too much money. Just more that we step away from our fear and towards what we really want.

It sounds to me you already have all you need in life to really enjoy the pursuit of these other bigger goals.
What do you feel you would regret not doing more of now when you are 80, 90, 100 years old?
 
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I think that is my current problem. I do not have an answer. I believe that I would like to start another business. However, the purpose of this business cannot be to make money. So I’m looking for another purpose to start a business now. However my future thinking me is thinking that it is too much work and I am unmotivated to start it because of this.
My new business is to help the little guy in my community. I live in rural Alaska. We have a lot of people who live in "dry cabins". They have no running water. Or no septic tank. No indoor plumbing. Or no good driveway for our "break-up" season when everything is muddy. I getting my mortgage broker's license so I can make small loans on their properties so they can get their well, or septic tank, or do some grading. They are bottom 1/3 of the market who are not served. No one wants to make these small loans because the paperwork and rules are draconian.

And it's worse than that. If they don't have a septic tank, the electric company won't supply them with a meter and electrical service. If they are native, they must have all the electrical and plumbing run inside their cabin before the native corporation will give them the grant to dig a well. Other services are dependent on these needed improvements.

I grew up part of my childhood in the Ozark Mountains in Missouri. My dad's people are hillbillies. We were just getting electrical services in our area for many of the people. Many didn't have indoor plumbing. We had party lines when we had phone services rather than dial phones. It was before a lot of infrastructures that we needed.

Here I am, with people in my community in a similar situation with their utility needs. People say to just use wind or solar power. Neither reliably work here during our winters -- if they work at all. I want to help these people by making small, secured loans ($5,000 to $20,000) to give these people an option. I know almost all of the contractors in my area. So, I'm getting set up for this coming summer. I'm saving money to loan out when I get it set up -- my concern is having deep enough pockets. I've taken the required class and passed the Federal exam. I'm setting up an LLC and the IT stuff to support the new business. I must go through a credit check, background check, asset check, obtaining a surety bond, and a bunch of other steps to get the licenses for myself and my new company. It's creating a small non-depository bank. It's a real pain to get it set up. Yes, it will take time -- maybe years -- to bring it into profitability. It's going to take a lot of small loans to equal just one FHA, VA, or conventional loan that most mortgage brokers make and sell on the secondary market.
 

SteveO

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@biophase . I can relate to what you are talking about. I was starting to go through the same thing back when I made the push to really expand.

That did not work out for me.

It turns out that my life crashing and burning gave me a different perspective. Getting sick for 4 years gave me a different perspective as well.

I'm not wishing either of those on you but life has a way of changing how you view it. I'm not saying something bad has to happen. Things will change though.

At 63, I'm probably as happy and challenged as I have ever been. Haven't always felt that way though.
 

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Back to the original question: realistically, when/if I hit the net worth of MJ, bio, or some of the other members, I'd probably start a private "shark tank" style thing. P2P lending is an area that still needs massive improvement, and despite the fact most adults are trash, there are people in this world with good ideas who have genuinely good intentions.

I've been fortunate to hit some great numbers over a decent career lifespan and every time my idea of what that level is rose higher.

Little examples: there was a time when I wished I could eat out anytime I wanted... early days money was tight. Then after being able to eat at any restaurant as much or as often as I wanted, I wanted to have the time freedom to cook at home. That got boring fast and I was missing the deal action at the business level.

Then, there was a time when cars were super exciting. I have a deposit on two very luxury cars now and am contemplating if it would add joy when I take possession. But the idea of 10x my business give me the phantom joy instantly! It hasn't happened yet, but the excitement I feel from it is hard to overstate.

So I know that once I achieve another 10x, there will be another after as a goal.

The point of this ramble is to know yourself. We are all wired differently. Each of us enjoys different things. Lean into what you enjoy and make sure you have enough of THAT.

I imagine @Kak never ever contemplating a "retirement" as he'd die inside if he stopped. Yet, I think @MTF is in his element the most when he's in a "retirement" mode, living an untethered life full of travel etc.

Most people want a lot of money and getting to a point when it doesn't matter if you have another $1M or $10M in your bank. Yet it's not the money we really crave, it's what we do with it. Right? So I agree with your post in that sense @Oso - it's not important for its own sake. But for those who need a private island and a jet as their objective, the road to that "freedom" is a little longer than those who want to chill in Mexico at an all inclusive resort.

:)
Knowing yourself is key. This thread shouldn't about anything other than being true to oneself and living a good life that is consistent with who you are.
 

biophase

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I've been thinking about this alot lately because I'm now at the point where I truly think that I have enough. But I'm not 100% certain yet. And it's also not as much as people may think. I know that is weird to say, but as you get older, you actually need less and less money. It's an odd place to be in, where your motivation for doing things ever since you were a teenager suddenly disappears.

I made this post in July 2020 (HOT TOPIC - How would you spend $1 million dollars and get no sellable value from it?). As you can see, this idea of spending money and having enough has been on my mind for a while now.

Then, someone recommended this book to me a month ago, (BOOK - Book discussion: Die With Zero) and it basically reinforced what I had already been thinking.

Getting back to how much is enough. That's a tough question. I'm going to be 50 this year and if I estimate that I'll live till 90, that's 40 more years of spending money. However, let's do some math here. If I had $4M, I could spend $100k a year. Many of you may think that $100k a year is not enough. However, if you factor in investments, real estate appreciating, rent increases, it's pretty clear that one could spend alot more than $100k a year and still have a substantial amount at age 90. So in reality, I could probably spend $150k a year on $4M. Now let's assume that I had $6M. Well now it's truly a no brainer. I mean $200k a year for the next 40 years with no living expense?

Now imagine if I continue to work 5 years. During this time I will increase my net worth and then have only 35 years to go. So now my yearly spend number increases to $250k-$300k? It's sort of going in the wrong direction. This is why I'm pondering all this right now. Just before I turn 50, and not 55 or 60.

So where is this going? Well, the funny thing is that alot of the things I have wanted to do was money motivated. And without the money part, I wonder if I still want to do them.

For example, I've always wanted to buy land and build tiny homes on them. Buy why did I want to do this? Well, the building part was cool and the finished product is cool too. But the last part is where you put them on Airbnb and make $200/night x 350 nights = $70,000. Multiply that by 5 tiny homes and you got $350,000/yr coming in. Again the dream was money based. What else would I do with them? Leave them empty? Sell them?

So I'm wondering if I should still but land and build Airbnb tiny homes, IF I don't care about what they can bring in. What is the purpose of this project then? Is it a hobby that I'd do regardless of monetary consequences? That's a question I haven't answered yet.

People tell me, you should buy bitcoin... but why?
You should buy XXX stock, but why?
You should buy real estate in XXX, but why?

Why should I if there is no money motivation?

This past week me and @snowbank went around Sedona looking at lots and new construction. I am trying to look at things without a money lens, but it is so hard. When you stand on a lot that is asking $300k. You look at the beautiful views. But then you ask, how much does it cost to build, how much does the next house over sell for? Then you do the calculations in your head. Hmmm, if I buy this and build this, it will be worth this and I can sell it for this. But should any of that really matter if you want a house of your dreams on this lot?

I guess I'm trying to get to the point where I don't make decisions based on money. And I don't mean I waste money. But the potential profits or future value of things really shouldn't come into play anymore, if I truly have enough net worth today.

I'm curious to know so I ask @MJ DeMarco, what is the purpose of your day trading? Is it a fun game you play? Is it something you do to keep your mind sharp? I assume that the day trading returns are a small percentage of your net worth/cash flow?

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

So I'm bumping this thread because it is a year later and I honestly don't have any new answers. This past year was great for me in terms of money. Ecommerce business valuations went to 3.5x to 6-7x. In addition, purchasing a home in Las Vegas turned out to be a great move, as real estate prices increased like crazy there. That meant my net worth jumped by a shit ton. So when I wrote this thread last year, I already thought I had enough money, but now I have way more.

My dog passed away recently so I've been even less motivated to do anything. She would be the reason that I had to wake up to let her out and feed her. She would be the reason I had to go on walks everyday. But now I am waking up later and later, like 10am, 11am. I just don't have anything that I need to do.

I fostered 2 8 week old puppies a few months ago, and that made me wake up at 6am everyday and they were a handful to take care of all day. I liked the work and responsibility but was very happy to see them get adopted after 2 weeks. I will be getting 2 new foster dogs in a few weeks. I think the dogs keep me from being a lazy bum.

IMG_0160.jpg

Self analyzing myself, I think that I've always been a high level thinker and very motivated to getting things done but I've always needed a goal or reward. And the goal of getting things done has always been... to make money... so I can buy shiny things or make my life and retirement is easier. Well, now I'm here in basically retirement and my life is easy. Maybe it's too easy. With Doordash, Amazon and Instacart I never have to leave my home. I leave to go to the gym and more recently, to play pickleball (that's the sign of official retirement based on the average age of people at the courts LOL).

I sometimes feel like my brain is bored. No complex problems to solve. No challenges. And when I come up with a challenge to myself, I think ahead on how much work it would take and decide against it. For example, let's say the challenge is to build a house on a lot. I think about dealing with contractors and permits, etc... and then I don't want to do it. In the past, the challenge was fun because there was a pot of gold at the end that I cared about. Now it's like playing a game with no score that never ends.
 

MJ DeMarco

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This thread inspired this video by me, relating to unease or worse, depression...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzF2_AYjqak&t=3s


Note: I'm not implying @biophase that you are depressed, but I've heard many stories like yours of "What now?" that just grow worse. I think Robin Williams is a great point of massive success, and then *something* happens where they find no purpose in life, no meaning to carry forward.

MJ, you know I was kind of happy with my new Vegas home until I saw yours. Now, all I think about is how to get a house with an indoor basketball court. I've been looking at homes on larger lots for that sole purpose. I even contacted my HOA to see what the building height limit is on my current home! LOL

Perhaps this is part of your unrest?

It made you realize that you do want something and right now it is out of reach -- not because you can't afford it (you can) but such a thing in a house is extremely rare. On top of that, once you find a house that has one, you have to like the house and the area. It's like you've worked hard to win a prize, but you can't take possession of the prize, and it remains a low probability. I've been looking at houses for 7 years and reviewed literally 1000s (no exaggeration) of houses ... of those 1000s, I only saw 3 homes with indoor basketball courts, and I bought one of them.

If this is of great importance (it sounds like it is) you might have to find a home owned by an NBA player who is moving... you know that has to happen pretty often. I know *things* like BB courts don't make someone happy, but working hard for X and succeeding, but not being able get that reward won't either.
 

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@biophase you are the originator of 'the superman speech'.
you changed a LOT of our lives that day in Phoenix.
you have superpowers. you are called to use them for good, brother.

i have a challenge for you:
create the next @biophase 's
teach. give back. show others the way. send the elevator back down.

want an even bigger version? judge yourself by who you teaches teaches.
create 10 people that have done what your company is doing for a cause and will then create the next 10.

you changed my kids lives with the soap business.
you changed mine with the superman speech and getting to see what you are doing all these years.
your new scorecard could be the impact those you impact make

even this whole thread of you not knowing what to do helps inspire. helps cement the line i added to my personal directives to keep me from getting bored in what i do.......

here is the top of my poster i look at daily:

1642885009421.png

you helped me put that there.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Give yourself some credit. You are back in town after climbing all the mountains and coming back down from base camp.
Keep reaching out, experimenting, sticking yourself into things. Something will pop up worthy of your full effort.

Love you, bro!
 
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WJK

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I just wanted to say thank you for bringing up this topic and discussing it so intensely - I haven't seen it discussed in such honesty anywhere else. I am a person learning from reading and it helps me a lot to see what may be happening some steps ahead of my own journey. It also keeps me wondering if this something one can adjust for early on. I fear not, but I like the way how djmarco came up with actualizing ones purpose.
You will find your own way.

At this moment I find it is the little things that can do for others that really count in my life. I do all of it under the radar. Only the people in my immediate circle know what I am doing. They only know because I'm getting them to help me in the execution of small acts of kindness.

For example, I have a tenant who is a disabled young woman raising 6 kids by herself. She has serious heart problems. Three of the kids are hers and the other 3 are her sister's abandoned kids. The young lady's budget is tighter than tight. So, this month I went out and bought sundries for her -- toilet paper, toothpaste, soap, shampoo, cleaning supplies, and other household things that get used up. I just showed up at her door with the back of my pickup truck filled with stuff that I know she needs and cannot afford. It costs about the same as a night for my husband and me to go out on the town. I'd rather have a quiet night at home in front of our fireplace and spend the money blessing this sweet woman and her kids. By the way, she sent the 6 kids over to shovel out my walks and driveway this week when we got another big snow. We all had a "snow party" in my driveway. Those kids are wonderful!

I try to do something nice for someone just about every day. It's the small acts of kindness that really shape and count in my life. I don't have to do anything big. I can pick up a prescription while I'm in town and pay for it when someone needs the meds. I can take someone a plate of home-cooked food. I can give someone a ride that they need. I can give someone a break when they are feeling really down. I can be kind and generous without it making a dent in my life or the greater world noticing. Now you know about my secret life!
 

BizyDad

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Would you be options trading if the reward for being right was just kudos?
I think that's really it. What do you want to spend your time doing?

I love what I do. I don't feel the pressure of building a massive nest egg because I see myself continuing to work for as long as I am capable. I like stats, I like numbers, I like people, I like figuring out new things, I like building businesses. Imight not always be running an agency, but I imagine I'll always be marketing and growing my marketing skill set. I asked myself a long time ago how I want to spend my days, and on any given day, I'm living 85% of my dream. And I'm happy with that.

When I was younger, I thought I wanted to be rich. But once I got into the real world, I learned I'm not terribly money motivated. I always wanted something more, something that challenges my brain. That's what keeps me engaged and that's why I do what I do.

It sounds like somewhere you lost the focus on "bringing value" and got stuck seeing everything through the lens of money. I know in a certain frame of reference those are the same thing, especially on this forum, but I hear you asking a basic "why am I here?" type questions that money often can't answer but value still can.

What do you value?
What are you willing to lay it all on the line for?
What is the legacy you want to leave behind?
How do you want to spend your days? Your minutes?

Because honestly, your dream home sounds more like a box you want to check as opposed to, you know, an actual life-affirming dream. There's nothing wrong with that, especially considering how many people build that supposed life affirming edifice only to be disappointed and ask themselves, is this all there is?

But I'm hearing a general mid-life successful guy malaise in these threads. Am I on the right track? Are these the kinds of questions you are asking?
 

MJ DeMarco

I followed the science; all I found was money.
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I'm currently in a similar situation, but not so much questioning the "what next" portion of the problem.

I'm extremely happy and probably at peace more than I've been in the last ten years.

I find that our motivations appear to be rooted in a desire to "find" happiness, as if happiness is something to be achieved, acquired, or found. Happiness cannot come from external sources, it must come from within. The external sources can enhance happiness, sure, but ultimately lasting happiness must come from the inside.

For me as I enter the last third of my life I'm looking to be less focused on money and external validations -- for me, I just want to be grateful for every moment that I can live how I want, and do work how I want. Gratitude is a big part of this happiness equation. The ability to make a difference in the world is profoundly rewarding, even though I rarely get to see the actual results of that difference.

It's a question that few address ... after you climb Mt. Olympus, what do you do next? After you've driven your dream car, lived in your dream house, and have the money to eat when/where you want, what's next?

Ultimately the answer might expose your true purpose in life.

Kenric perhaps for you it might be a charitable organization that rescues dogs, but does so with some type of new spin. Bring your extensive business experience and put a BIG SPIN on an industry that is rife with stagnation and no innovation. I think something that inspires a purpose beyond our selfish reasons might lead you to a more fulfilling existence.

I leave to go to the gym and more recently, to play pickleball

You got a game when you come back, we converted our basketball court into a pickleball court, it definitely is a much better workout (for us old geezers) and not so hard on the ankles. The BB court wasn't getting a lot of use as playing one-on-one with my wife was about as challenging as arm-wrestling an ant.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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I resonate with the sense of meaninglessness that biophase and MTF have shared on this thread and elsewhere. I used to be filled with hopeful optimism, ambition, drive, and deep enjoyment in the pursuit of my goals. Now, it has all been replaced overall with a feeling of, "Why bother?"

This has even stripped the fun out of things that used to offer me the greatest thrill in life, such as skiing. I remember driving up to the Colorado mountains to ski a few years back and being startled that instead of being filled with childlike wonder and excitement, I was struggling with feelings of, "What's the point? Is this a waste is time?" And even when I got there, I couldn't find that enjoyment that used to be there. It felt like an endless exercise of "go up the ski lift...go down the hill...repeat." It was kind of like the feeling I got when I rode a merry-go-round when I was about 12 years old, where I was too old to get the thrill that the younger kids were getting.

I was devastated to find that this was the case. Skiing used to be the best thing ever! And I was similarly devastated to find that same experience of meaninglessness creeping into every area of life.

Believe me, I didn't WANT to see the world this way. Life is way more fun when you are in pursuit of the grand adventure. I remembered how much wonder and purpose and vibrancy I used to experience. I missed it. But I couldn't get it back or "snap out of it," any more than 12-year-old me could snap back into having the same delight in the merry-go-round that the toddlers were having. The best I could do was pretend.


As a committed Christian who believes in heaven, even this is not enough to combat that feeling of meaninglessness. (It apparently wasn't for Solomon, either, in the book of Ecclesiastes.) For me, the only difference is that I think, "I just need to survive this existence until I get to die, and then the good times will finally start."

But the duration of my lifespan still stretches out ahead of me, punctuated with "What's the point? Why bother? Why exert myself?" at every turn.

By the way...some have suggested altruism, self-sacrifice, or philanthropy as a way out of this mess. I thought the same thing. I had already tried various iterations of this, back before this feeling of meaninglessness took over. I had volunteered for 6 months to help drug addicts and the homeless. I had volunteered for another 9 months to teach school at an orphanage in Haiti. I had volunteered for 5 years teaching classes to women in the local county jail. I had done other things here and there. In earlier days, this was a way for me to do something that mattered, something to avoid living a mediocre life, something to increase my satisfaction. When you can do this kind of thing out of the joy of your heart, it's great.

But here's what I ran into. When you try to use "helping a cause you care about" as a means to increase your purpose in life (when you're in the midst of feeling meaningless), it doesn't work. Instead, it can leave you extra vulnerable to making things way worse for yourself.

How it played out for me:

I met a man and fell in love with him. He eased the loneliness I was feeling at the time. On the surface, he was the kind of person I would never, never, never consider marrying, not for a second. He was needy (living on disability). He was in poor health (overweight and eating at McDonald's every day for the last 20 years). He was significantly older than me. He was living in a broken down hoarder house that some people were allowing him to live in for free. He was socially inept.

But I was feeling miserable and purposeless, and I really did fall in love with him. I thought, "Well, if I can't be happy myself, at least I can try to cheer someone else up. And maybe that will pull me up as well. I'll find my meaning and purpose in making someone else happy."

We married, despite vocal objections from every single person I knew. And I set out to make him happy.

I succeeded. He went from having a very hard life to having a dream life. His every need was taken care of. He had a loving wife who made him nutritious meals and took him to do things and have experiences that he had never had before.

But this didn't increase my consciousness of any purpose or meaning. Instead, it only highlighted to my attention that it was a one way street of giving. And at the end of the day, he is still sad because he nurses a victim mentality. He doesn't do anything productive, leaving me to do it all. He has an external locus of control, and it wears me down to hear his sidewalk thinking all the time.

So instead of me finding meaning and purpose, I developed full-blown anxiety and depression. Whereas before, I would have questioned whether I was depressed, now I acknowledged it outright.

I know this is an extreme example, and hopefully no one on this forum will make a decision of this magnitude. But I share this as a warning, because when you look for meaning and purpose in altruism, there's always a little voice in the back of your head that says, "You haven't found meaning yet, but if you give more, you might." No. Not true.

At this point in my life, I would say, if you're going to try self-sacrifice in pursuit of meaning, do it the way you'd invest in crypto. Only invest the amount you have to spare, the amount that won't affect you if you lose it all. (The voice in your head will say, "Well, if it doesn't affect you, then it's not really a sacrifice." Ignore that voice.) Self sacrifice and altruism and philanthropy makes lots of people's lives better, but it still doesn't give you meaning.

(Oh, and please don't bother feeling sorry for me. I don't share this story to garner pity, just to add to the conversation a detail that some may have overlooked.)

Edit: I wrote and posted this before seeing the video on MJ's post above mine, so this wasn't targeted at that video as a contradiction. Actually what I suspect is that the loss of the feeling of meaning and purpose stems from a traumatic or emotional situation. I know that MTF and I both share this in common. Previous to our feeling of loss of purpose, we each had a deeply sad experience that rocked us to the core. I suspect this is a common factor for anyone else who loses that feeling of purpose as well. When something like that happens, no amount of money can make up for it, no lofty goal can mask it, and no pursuit in life has the same sparkle that it used to.

A lot to unpack here but I don't think this relates to meaning and purpose, but a search to find happiness in someone else, instead of yourself. If you're not happy alone, you certainly won't be happy married, especially when it sounds like (in your own words) you married someone more unhappy/broken than yourself.

When it comes to relationships, two negatives won't make a positive. For me, marriage was never an option in my life until I felt somewhat "self-actualized" and happy ... only then was when marriage (or "settling down") became an option.

As I like to say, you can't change the world if one hasn't learned to change him/herself.

Are you still married to this same man?

Reading your story makes me sad that you had to endure that.
 
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biophase

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Perhaps this is part of your unrest?

It made you realize that you do want something and right now it is out of reach -- not because you can't afford it (you can) but such a thing in a house is extremely rare. On top of that, once you find a house that has one, you have to like the house and the area. It's like you've worked hard to win a prize, but you can't take possession of the prize, and it remains a low probability. I've been looking at houses for 7 years and reviewed literally 1000s (no exaggeration) of houses ... of those 1000s, I only saw 3 homes with indoor basketball courts, and I bought one of them.

I’ve felt this way over a year ago. Remember my original post was from January 2021.

I actually think it is the opposite effect because now I have a goal to aim at. Whereas before I was aimlessly looking at real estate anywhere just to buy more.

There are many things that want but can’t afford. I can see a path to buying those things but I don’t want to put in the effort and work to do so. House with a bball court seems doable and well within reach at my current effort level which is why I’m actually researching it.

I also want to point out that I am not depressed by any means. I was just asking the question of what motivates us once the goal of making money is no longer there.
In regards to charity and giving, I have also checked that box so Im looking for more.

This post is the opposite of what a few of comments have said. It’s not me being lazy and feeling blah blah. It’s actually me feeling the opposite asking what else can I do and what is the motivation to do it. If I wanted to just cruise through the rest of life, I wouldn’t have asked this question at all.

I feel that the people who have answered by saying more more money or I’ll always be full throttle till I die will have these same questions 5-10 years from now unless they find a different purpose now. I’m going to use the age card and say, you guys are just young and won’t understand until you get older.

@MJ DeMarco Regarding the purpose you mentioned in your video. What happens when you are on book number 10, I agree that the purpose may still be there, but maybe you don’t want to write another book. Do you shift to a tv show? Movie? Some other method of delivering your purpose? That’s kind of what I’m pondering. I’ve been donating boxes for 6 years now. Maybe I need to switch my delivery system to change/multiply its impact.
 
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biophase

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Another year passes... so it's time to check in with @biophase . How are you doing Kenric? How's the basketball court coming along?

I'm 48 and I admit that in terms of net worth, I'm not where you're at. I have enough that my wife and I can retire today if we wanted to. She is feeling like it's "enough", while I still want to contribute more, do more, learn more despite it no longer being purely about money. I say that just to preface that I am not in your position and am not pretending to be.

My fastlane has been in real estate (building, flipping, and buy & hold) so I get the appeal of REI. After working in this industry during some really good years, it's painful to see so many people feel like they can't afford a house; not now, not ever. And it's not those living just above the poverty line. I have friends that had a failed business because of covid and had to restart after turning 50, and another that went through a divorce and is a single mom without support. Thankfully there are rental options that they can afford but those rates are quickly outpacing inflation too.

These people and others like them are becoming my 'why'.

Maybe that's an angle you can explore if you enjoy REI and aren't in it for the money?

I'm now toying with the idea of building small prefabs and ADUs. I think there's an opportunity on the for-profit side for people who can afford it but also a chance to understand how these could help with the housing shortages on the low income side that we currently have. It's like your tiny house community concept but a bit bigger footprint and not STR. Instead perhaps lease-to-own or purchases so everyone can take pride in being a home owner and build some equity.

The thing holding me back despite my motivation is that it would require a factory, perhaps not initially but it would be a long-term requirement for success. And I'm sure I don't have to explain to you how daunting that sounds.

Anyway, I hope you've found some purpose or new passion to give you more motivation over the past year, or at the very least more peace with 'lifting off the gas'.

If you ever do decide to offer a mentorship/coaching program again, as Zane and others have suggested, let me know. I'd be up for learning how to be successful in ecom, because factories aren't cheap to build.
;)
Sorry I somehow missed this post.

Yes, another year passes and I'm still kind of in the same place in terms of mentality. Financially, I'm better because as each year passes, you accumulate more money and you have one year less to spend it.

I still find it very hard to let go of the more money mindset. I'm just going to guess that even someone worth $100M, if they dropped to $99M they would feel kind of bad. I think this keeps us always wanting to hold onto to what we have and accumulate.

Regarding a new purpose, giving back is probably the most fulfilling thing that I do now. New toys or houses are just blah for me. The novelty wears off so quickly. I can feel myself changing because I spend more money on others than myself now. And sometimes it's hard to do, but I'm treating it like working out a muscle. The more I do, the easier it gets.

For example, I bought two rescue vehicles this year and spent around $40k. But I couldn't get myself to by myself a new car.

I think my venture into REI and fulfillment will be doing dog sanctuaries or dog rescue buildings. Many people purchase commercial buildings and then rent them to rescues at $1/year. I think this part is where I'm fighting with myself because I say to myself, if I had an extra $1M I would totally buy this building for a rescue. But then I step back and realize that I probably said this to myself 5 years ago and now I do have that additional $1M. I guess it's admitting to myself that I'm not ready to spend $1M and get no return for it. So maybe I don't really have "enough". But then I redo my calculations, and yes I do. So why I don't I do it and buy that $1M building?

There was a story of the secretary that passes away and then they find out she had accumulated over $10M in XXX company stock. She left all her inheritance to a charity. The media was praising her for donating $10M to a charity sayings that she's so unselfish and giving.

I remember reading an article rebutting this. It said, you aren't unselfish if you donate it all after you die because you couldn't use it anymore. It went on to say, that having $10M and not doing anything with it was worse than not having it at all. She could have donated $1M a year, for 10 years and started 10 years earlier. I don't know if you agree or disagree with that, but it certainly made me think. The dog that needs a surgery needs it now, not 10 years from now, not whenever it's convenient of me to donate it. So that's why I'm trying to train myself to start doing this earlier and earlier.


326125103_3005266943102587_3012171411914839968_n.jpg

BTW, I've noticed that this topic is becoming more prevalent in podcasts. I must have listened to at least 3-4 people discuss this in the past 6 months. I think the initial wave of ecom/internet business owners are now getting to 45+ after years of making decent money and trying to figure out what's next.

When your wife says that you have enough, does she want you to change your lifestyle somehow? Is it because she wants to travel or do something? Or is it because she thinks you are working too hard?

Again, let me reiterate that this all doesn't mean I'm unhappy. I am super happy and very grateful to be in this position.
 

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Not me, keep 'em coming.



Yes, what struck me in Singer's work was the simple phrase, "Unconditional happiness."

The stories he used to exemplify that process really made that phrase come alive ... that you ALWAYS have the ability to be happy, no matter what the world is throwing at you. The world will be the world. Life will go on, the earth will continue to spin, not matter how much you resist.

The example he used was the guy who had his girlfriend leave him. He was miserable for months, until she came back and regretted the decision. Then he was happy. In other words, he's letting external stimuli dictate happiness when in fact, the happiness is always there. Nothing physical occurred, it was purely mental.

We've become accustomed to letting external factors dictate our happiness ... when this, when that...

Even my step son...

He said this other day as he was in a bad mood.

I'll be happy when I'm ripped. (He's in decent shape, but not ripped.)

In other words, I'm going to be miserable in my youth every single day until I reach some external vanity goal. And then when he reaches it, it will be another distant goal... I'll be happy when I get that hot girlfriend, that awesome job...

Lost is happiness.

Lost is the now.

One day, we wake up and realize life has past us by reaching for transient happiness, when the pure happiness was there all along.
When I was young, I was always gonna be happy when ______ happened. It was just around the corner. When it finally came, I found that most of the time, I had already sucked the happiness out of that event or accomplishment. All I had was an empty, sick feeling. I landed with a dull thud rather than being lifted up with elation. Those moments just didn't live up to the anticipation.

And then my world totally changed. It was 1980 and I was a kidney patient at the clinic at UCLA in Los Angeles. I had always had problems, so it was during one of my regular Wednesday visits that a young doctor told me. I had 2 weeks to 2 months to live IF I didn't go on a kidney dialysis machine. And if I did, they could "give" me around 5 years.

No, I didn't let them put me on the machine. Yes, I did tell the doctor what he could do with his machine in some pretty graphic language -- without using one cuss word. Then I told him that he could die first. Today, he could walk out in front of the clinic and be hit by a Mac Truck. I finished by telling him that he didn't know anything about my life. If I was going to die, I would at least do it at home in my nice warm bed -- not on his cold steel table. You should have seen his jaw drop at my reply to his news. He gulped a couple of times. Then he wrote in my chart that I was uncooperative. He walked me to the door and told the guard not to let me back in. After that, the clinic refused to see or treat me. Yes, I had some very bad days where I almost didn't make it. The EMTs had to bring me back a couple of times. BUT, I'm still here 41 years later.

That doctor's visit was the moment that changed my life. I ask myself when I was going to be happy since I might not wake up tomorrow. I evaluated everything. I looked for what was wrong with my life and vowed to change it. And I'm still doing that today. I have learned that dying is easy. It's the living day-to-day that is hard. And I'm not going to willing waste a minute of it on being unhappy!
 

Andy Black

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On the subject of purpose, here’s something I wrote a few years ago:

Sorry about your dog @biophase.

And to others who have lost people along the way.

Loss is hard, and can affect us in strange ways. I know I haven’t slept well for years now.

I don’t have FU money, and I don’t always do things to help people (although that’s a hack of mine that I know works on me). I still love figuring new things out. I try to maintain a childlike wonder at the world.
 
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biophase

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I think that's really it. What do you want to spend your time doing?

It sounds like somewhere you lost the focus on "bringing value" and got stuck seeing everything through the lens of money. I know in a certain frame of reference those are the same thing, especially on this forum, but I hear you asking a basic "why am I here?" type questions that money often can't answer but value still can.

What do you value?
What are you willing to lay it all on the line for?
What is the legacy you want to leave behind?
How do you want to spend your days? Your minutes?

Because honestly, your dream home sounds more like a box you want to check as opposed to, you know, an actual life-affirming dream. There's nothing wrong with that, especially considering how many people build that supposed life affirming edifice only to be disappointed and ask themselves, is this all there is?

But I'm hearing a general mid-life successful guy malaise in these threads. Am I on the right track? Are these the kinds of questions you are asking?

There's an episode on a TV show where the Asian kid gets a hobby. The mom asks what a hobby is. The kid explains it to the mom and she says, "I don't understand, it doesn't make money and it doesn't help you get into a better college. Why would you waste your time on something like that."

Regarding the dream house, I'm not looking to build a dream home now. I was visiting lots with my friend who wants to build his. I used it as an example because even though he wanted to build a dream home, dollars and ROI came into the conversation. My thought is that for your dream home, none of that should matter because it's your dream.

I actually already have my dream home in Colorado (although I do wish it had 1-2 more bedrooms). I have a really nice home in Sedona and am at the point where I can't figure out where I would buy my 3rd "dream" house which led me to realize that I don't need any more homes and thus without the allure of buying real estate, it is very hard to spend money.

As for how I want to spend my days, I don't know. This morning, I'm here on the forum and plan to go hiking at 1pm. The last 4 days, I had nothing on my schedule. This is not to say that I'm bored. My go to activity if I have nothing to do is to work on my business, or start a new one. However, I have now realize that I like those tasks only because they potentially bring me more money. So I'm trying to not do things like that for a while and see how it goes.
 
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WowVisible

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I've been thinking about this alot lately because I'm now at the point where I truly think that I have enough. But I'm not 100% certain yet. And it's also not as much as people may think. I know that is weird to say, but as you get older, you actually need less and less money. It's an odd place to be in, where your motivation for doing things ever since you were a teenager suddenly disappears.

I made this post in July 2020 (HOT TOPIC - How would you spend $1 million dollars and get no sellable value from it?). As you can see, this idea of spending money and having enough has been on my mind for a while now.

Then, someone recommended this book to me a month ago, (BOOK - Book discussion: Die With Zero) and it basically reinforced what I had already been thinking.

Getting back to how much is enough. That's a tough question. I'm going to be 50 this year and if I estimate that I'll live till 90, that's 40 more years of spending money. However, let's do some math here. If I had $4M, I could spend $100k a year. Many of you may think that $100k a year is not enough. However, if you factor in investments, real estate appreciating, rent increases, it's pretty clear that one could spend alot more than $100k a year and still have a substantial amount at age 90. So in reality, I could probably spend $150k a year on $4M. Now let's assume that I had $6M. Well now it's truly a no brainer. I mean $200k a year for the next 40 years with no living expense?

Now imagine if I continue to work 5 years. During this time I will increase my net worth and then have only 35 years to go. So now my yearly spend number increases to $250k-$300k? It's sort of going in the wrong direction. This is why I'm pondering all this right now. Just before I turn 50, and not 55 or 60.

So where is this going? Well, the funny thing is that alot of the things I have wanted to do was money motivated. And without the money part, I wonder if I still want to do them.

For example, I've always wanted to buy land and build tiny homes on them. Buy why did I want to do this? Well, the building part was cool and the finished product is cool too. But the last part is where you put them on Airbnb and make $200/night x 350 nights = $70,000. Multiply that by 5 tiny homes and you got $350,000/yr coming in. Again the dream was money based. What else would I do with them? Leave them empty? Sell them?

So I'm wondering if I should still but land and build Airbnb tiny homes, IF I don't care about what they can bring in. What is the purpose of this project then? Is it a hobby that I'd do regardless of monetary consequences? That's a question I haven't answered yet.

People tell me, you should buy bitcoin... but why?
You should buy XXX stock, but why?
You should buy real estate in XXX, but why?

Why should I if there is no money motivation?

This past week me and @snowbank went around Sedona looking at lots and new construction. I am trying to look at things without a money lens, but it is so hard. When you stand on a lot that is asking $300k. You look at the beautiful views. But then you ask, how much does it cost to build, how much does the next house over sell for? Then you do the calculations in your head. Hmmm, if I buy this and build this, it will be worth this and I can sell it for this. But should any of that really matter if you want a house of your dreams on this lot?

I guess I'm trying to get to the point where I don't make decisions based on money. And I don't mean I waste money. But the potential profits or future value of things really shouldn't come into play anymore, if I truly have enough net worth today.

I'm curious to know so I ask @MJ DeMarco, what is the purpose of your day trading? Is it a fun game you play? Is it something you do to keep your mind sharp? I assume that the day trading returns are a small percentage of your net worth/cash flow?

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
For me, I won't stop making money because my purpose is clear that I want to help more people. In this world money is an instrument. Right now, I allocated 20% of my net income for Giving activities. I recommend focusing on helping others. You can build a foundation if you want. It's self-rewarding!

I highly recommend reading this book. I believe this will definitely answer your questions.
give and take.jpg
 
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Antifragile

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@Kak - I am 100% with you. My days start with a zero. And then I climb. Today I woke up at 4:30am and got going!

I am not poor, nor do I have f-u money either. But if I wanted to, I probably could retire in luxury. Still I cannot relate to what @biophase you are sharing. (Sorry about your dog, sad moment for anyone). It sounds like money was the purpose of working hard and now waking up. It's a mental state situation. If I had more money, I'd have a much larger business, even more employees and I'd love it.

This quote comes to mind:
"Look at a day when you are supremely satisfied at the end. It’s not a day when you lounge around doing nothing; it’s a day you’ve had everything to do and you’ve done it." - Margaret Thatcher

@MTF and I exchanged many posts on Goggins or not to Goggins. Ironically, for business success we need downtime to think clearly. I make the most money when my brain is sharp. And that comes from doing less or "letting go". It can be a bit confusing, but my point is that you don't have to be Goggins 24/7. Yet lounging around contemplating the meaning of life and doing nothing is not for me. I can't imagine that life bringing me anything but unhappiness.

Suggestions? None. I don't think anyone who feels like that needs or wants to read something on the forum on "do this" or "do that". It's all BS. How you feel is in your head. You didn't always feel that way, so you know the answer... you may not like it, but it is what it is... such is life.

Lastly, I remember a book called Flow, read it many years ago. It had an impact on me because it resonated with what I experienced.

-->
“The best moments in our lives, are not the passive, receptive, relaxing times—although such experiences can also be enjoyable, if we have worked hard to attain them. The best moments usually occur when a person’s body or mind is stretched to its limits in a voluntary effort to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile.

Optimal experience is thus something that we make happen. For a child, it could be placing with trembling fingers the last block on a tower she has built, higher than any she has built so far; for a swimmer, it could be trying to beat his own record; for a violinist, mastering an intricate musical passage. For each person there are thousands of opportunities, challenges to expand ourselves.”
― Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience
 
G

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There is a lot of gloomy nihilism on this thread.

From a Christian (I am not one to preach at all by the way so I’m not preaching) or rather, western philosophy perspective, this is...how do the experts say... “whack, bro.”

You should have a family. And your family matters. They will inherit your legacy, and hopefully, pass it on to their people too.

And through countless generations, even when your name is forgotten, your life will have mattered - significantly.

Look, I know we are tiny blinks in life, but we all matter tremendously when you think about the butterfly effect, the human race, and the doubling of generations coming after you.

That’s not to even speak of what you may gain after you leave this life, which I am working on being more conscious of myself. Maybe you don’t believe in heaven or even any other afterlife? Well... many people do.
 
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Bekit

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I resonate with the sense of meaninglessness that biophase and MTF have shared on this thread and elsewhere. I used to be filled with hopeful optimism, ambition, drive, and deep enjoyment in the pursuit of my goals. Now, it has all been replaced overall with a feeling of, "Why bother?"

This has even stripped the fun out of things that used to offer me the greatest thrill in life, such as skiing. I remember driving up to the Colorado mountains to ski a few years back and being startled that instead of being filled with childlike wonder and excitement, I was struggling with feelings of, "What's the point? Is this a waste is time?" And even when I got there, I couldn't find that enjoyment that used to be there. It felt like an endless exercise of "go up the ski lift...go down the hill...repeat." It was kind of like the feeling I got when I rode a merry-go-round when I was about 12 years old, where I was too old to get the thrill that the younger kids were getting.

I was devastated to find that this was the case. Skiing used to be the best thing ever! And I was similarly devastated to find that same experience of meaninglessness creeping into every area of life.

Believe me, I didn't WANT to see the world this way. Life is way more fun when you are in pursuit of the grand adventure. I remembered how much wonder and purpose and vibrancy I used to experience. I missed it. But I couldn't get it back or "snap out of it," any more than 12-year-old me could snap back into having the same delight in the merry-go-round that the toddlers were having. The best I could do was pretend.

That’s not to even speak of what you may gain after you leave this life, which I am working on being more conscious of myself. Maybe you don’t believe in heaven or even any other afterlife? Well... many people do.
As a committed Christian who believes in heaven, even this is not enough to combat that feeling of meaninglessness. (It apparently wasn't for Solomon, either, in the book of Ecclesiastes.) For me, the only difference is that I think, "I just need to survive this existence until I get to die, and then the good times will finally start."

But the duration of my lifespan still stretches out ahead of me, punctuated with "What's the point? Why bother? Why exert myself?" at every turn.

By the way...some have suggested altruism, self-sacrifice, or philanthropy as a way out of this mess. I thought the same thing. I had already tried various iterations of this, back before this feeling of meaninglessness took over. I had volunteered for 6 months to help drug addicts and the homeless. I had volunteered for another 9 months to teach school at an orphanage in Haiti. I had volunteered for 5 years teaching classes to women in the local county jail. I had done other things here and there. In earlier days, this was a way for me to do something that mattered, something to avoid living a mediocre life, something to increase my satisfaction. When you can do this kind of thing out of the joy of your heart, it's great.

But here's what I ran into. When you try to use "helping a cause you care about" as a means to increase your purpose in life (when you're in the midst of feeling meaningless), it doesn't work. Instead, it can leave you extra vulnerable to making things way worse for yourself.

How it played out for me:

I met a man and fell in love with him. He eased the loneliness I was feeling at the time. On the surface, he was the kind of person I would never, never, never consider marrying, not for a second. He was needy (living on disability). He was in poor health (overweight and eating at McDonald's every day for the last 20 years). He was significantly older than me. He was living in a broken down hoarder house that some people were allowing him to live in for free. He was socially inept.

But I was feeling miserable and purposeless, and I really did fall in love with him. I thought, "Well, if I can't be happy myself, at least I can try to cheer someone else up. And maybe that will pull me up as well. I'll find my meaning and purpose in making someone else happy."

We married, despite vocal objections from every single person I knew. And I set out to make him happy.

I succeeded. He went from having a very hard life to having a dream life. His every need was taken care of. He had a loving wife who made him nutritious meals and took him to do things and have experiences that he had never had before.

But this didn't increase my consciousness of any purpose or meaning. Instead, it only highlighted to my attention that it was a one way street of giving. And at the end of the day, he is still sad because he nurses a victim mentality. He doesn't do anything productive, leaving me to do it all. He has an external locus of control, and it wears me down to hear his sidewalk thinking all the time.

So instead of me finding meaning and purpose, I developed full-blown anxiety and depression. Whereas before, I would have questioned whether I was depressed, now I acknowledged it outright.

I know this is an extreme example, and hopefully no one on this forum will make a decision of this magnitude. But I share this as a warning, because when you look for meaning and purpose in altruism, there's always a little voice in the back of your head that says, "You haven't found meaning yet, but if you give more, you might." No. Not true.

At this point in my life, I would say, if you're going to try self-sacrifice in pursuit of meaning, do it the way you'd invest in crypto. Only invest the amount you have to spare, the amount that won't affect you if you lose it all. (The voice in your head will say, "Well, if it doesn't affect you, then it's not really a sacrifice." Ignore that voice.) Self sacrifice and altruism and philanthropy makes lots of people's lives better, but it still doesn't give you meaning.

(Oh, and please don't bother feeling sorry for me. I don't share this story to garner pity, just to add to the conversation a detail that some may have overlooked.)

Edit: I wrote and posted this before seeing the video on MJ's post above mine, so this wasn't targeted at that video as a contradiction. Actually what I suspect is that the loss of the feeling of meaning and purpose stems from a traumatic or emotional situation. I know that MTF and I both share this in common. Previous to our feeling of loss of purpose, we each had a deeply sad experience that rocked us to the core. I suspect this is a common factor for anyone else who loses that feeling of purpose as well. When something like that happens, no amount of money can make up for it, no lofty goal can mask it, and no pursuit in life has the same sparkle that it used to.
 
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biophase

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Now, it has all been replaced overall with a feeling of, "Why bother?"

This has even stripped the fun out of things that used to offer me the greatest thrill in life, such as skiing. I remember driving up to the Colorado mountains to ski a few years back and being startled that instead of being filled with childlike wonder and excitement, I was struggling with feelings of, "What's the point? Is this a waste is time?" And even when I got there, I couldn't find that enjoyment that used to be there. It felt like an endless exercise of "go up the ski lift...go down the hill...repeat." It was kind of like the feeling I got when I rode a merry-go-round when I was about 12 years old, where I was too old to get the thrill that the younger kids were getting.
This is the question I ask about many things. But it’s not a bad question, it’s just that you get less positive answers.

I’ve noticed this amongst many of my friends with hobbies and sports. Things you loved in the past you no longer want to do. Many times it is been there done that many times.

For me, I still enjoy mountain biking. My real estate purchases and dictated by the home’s proximity to biking trails. There is no point in cruising in the mountains besides to cruise in the mountains. There are many things that I still enjoy for the sake of enjoyment but that list is very small now.

I think everyone needs to find at least one of those things. Whether it be off-roading, paintball, keeping aquariums or biking. Find one thing that you love to do and find others that share the same feeling. That’s all you need.

As for skiing, I would never go by myself as skiing isn’t the main reason I’d go. It would be to spend time with friends. But I had a friend that would drive 4 hours and ski by himself every weekend. He truly loved it. He eventually moved to Breckinridge and became a ski instructor. He still loves it to this day. He found his one thing.
 

WJK

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I've been thinking about this alot lately because I'm now at the point where I truly think that I have enough. But I'm not 100% certain yet. And it's also not as much as people may think. I know that is weird to say, but as you get older, you actually need less and less money. It's an odd place to be in, where your motivation for doing things ever since you were a teenager suddenly disappears.

I made this post in July 2020 (HOT TOPIC - How would you spend $1 million dollars and get no sellable value from it?). As you can see, this idea of spending money and having enough has been on my mind for a while now.

Then, someone recommended this book to me a month ago, (BOOK - Book discussion: Die With Zero) and it basically reinforced what I had already been thinking.

Getting back to how much is enough. That's a tough question. I'm going to be 50 this year and if I estimate that I'll live till 90, that's 40 more years of spending money. However, let's do some math here. If I had $4M, I could spend $100k a year. Many of you may think that $100k a year is not enough. However, if you factor in investments, real estate appreciating, rent increases, it's pretty clear that one could spend alot more than $100k a year and still have a substantial amount at age 90. So in reality, I could probably spend $150k a year on $4M. Now let's assume that I had $6M. Well now it's truly a no brainer. I mean $200k a year for the next 40 years with no living expense?

Now imagine if I continue to work 5 years. During this time I will increase my net worth and then have only 35 years to go. So now my yearly spend number increases to $250k-$300k? It's sort of going in the wrong direction. This is why I'm pondering all this right now. Just before I turn 50, and not 55 or 60.

So where is this going? Well, the funny thing is that alot of the things I have wanted to do was money motivated. And without the money part, I wonder if I still want to do them.

For example, I've always wanted to buy land and build tiny homes on them. Buy why did I want to do this? Well, the building part was cool and the finished product is cool too. But the last part is where you put them on Airbnb and make $200/night x 350 nights = $70,000. Multiply that by 5 tiny homes and you got $350,000/yr coming in. Again the dream was money based. What else would I do with them? Leave them empty? Sell them?

So I'm wondering if I should still but land and build Airbnb tiny homes, IF I don't care about what they can bring in. What is the purpose of this project then? Is it a hobby that I'd do regardless of monetary consequences? That's a question I haven't answered yet.

People tell me, you should buy bitcoin... but why?
You should buy XXX stock, but why?
You should buy real estate in XXX, but why?

Why should I if there is no money motivation?

This past week me and @snowbank went around Sedona looking at lots and new construction. I am trying to look at things without a money lens, but it is so hard. When you stand on a lot that is asking $300k. You look at the beautiful views. But then you ask, how much does it cost to build, how much does the next house over sell for? Then you do the calculations in your head. Hmmm, if I buy this and build this, it will be worth this and I can sell it for this. But should any of that really matter if you want a I house of your dreams on this lot?

I guess I'm trying to get to the point where I don't make decisions based on money. And I don't mean I waste money. But the potential profits or future value of things really shouldn't come into play anymore, if I truly have enough net worth today.

I'm curious to know so I ask @MJ DeMarco, what is the purpose of your day trading? Is it a fun game you play? Is it something you do to keep your mind sharp? I assume that the day trading returns are a small percentage of your net worth/cash flow?

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
I have found that I'm really not good at being retired. It sounded good. The reality is NOT what I thought it would be. Boring... The fun was quickly over...
 

MJ DeMarco

I followed the science; all I found was money.
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Would you be options trading if the reward for being right was just kudos?

No, for me the money is just a conduit to a greater sense of control and security.

Like I said, I could shut down every business venture I own and still have peace of mind knowing that I built myself this skill, a skill that would keep the bills paid, without having to dig into what I've already earned years ago.

Ultimately, it comes down to security. With poor health insurance, a 6 week stay in the hospital would cost millions, so for me, I have no false sense of "too much" --- too much for personal trinkets maybe, but not too much when it comes for contingency planning.
 

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