Attention Losers...

[wyattnorton]

In the past 6 years of flipping houses (4 with my pops and 2 on my own), I have my fair share of stories about the loser contractors I have dealt with.


The losers that you run into in southern Illinois are bountiful. If you want to hire one solid guy who shows up and does the work correctly without charging up the a$$, you MUST go through 10-15 other guys first. The odds of finding someone that doesn't fall apart, scam you, jerk you around, and every other dirt bag move is very rare.


It would be a disservice to all the new and current forum users if I do not post the lessons I have learned on how NOT to run your businesses.


I will start with two and add more as I think of them.


ENJOY

1. Chase Chump Change, Forget The Big Bucks.
   1. I hired a dude from East St. Louis on Craigslist to install cheap Menards laminate flooring. The space was 650 square feet, he didn’t have insurance but did provide 4 solid references which I called up and they confirmed his work. $1.50/sqft as a quote was given.
   2. The first half of the flooring was great, to say the least. It was surprising how well it was tucked underneath walls and set up perfectly for trim pieces. The second half, however, was a nightmare. Jagged cuts, ugly lines, spacing so large I had to pump half a tube of gray caulk to cover it.
   3. Turns on when you pay a loser and he knows you have money, he’ll rush for his next chance to get a few hundred bucks to blow on his bitches.
   4. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. (I went through 3 losers before him that could barely operate). So I made a deal, if he puts up the baseboard trim and door trim, and it is done right, I’ll move on from the floor. (These are cheap a$$ houses, so it doesn’t need to be “perfect” but good enough was better than his shitty second half).
   5. Now he rushed, even more, to get some money for his hoes and be East St Louis rich…
   6. $185 is what he wanted so badly. I ended up having to redo ALL of the trim he put up because of how badly it was done. The house needed so much more done to it and if he played his cards right, he could have EASILY made $5k-$10k working for me.
   7. LESSON: Focus on where you can make the most money. If you’re chasing the hundred-dollar deals when you could be chasing the ten-thousand-dollar deals, you’re a loser. If you worry about spending $1000 to buy something that can buy back your time or bring in more money, you’re a loser. If you lose focus on quality and delivering on your word just to make quick money, you’re a loser.
      
2. Do It Right The First Time.
   1. Hired this guy, let's call him Andy that did a few houses with my pops 3-4 years ago. He was an on-and-off drunk going through a brutal divorce with 2 girls. I reached out for my one property closer to Springfield in hopes of getting the roof and siding done. Went through 6-8 guys/companies that were quoting jackass prices.
   2. Contacted Andy to see what he was up to (and if he was square). We talked in person and he seemed straight, got out of the divorce, and was able to get custody of his 2 girls. He ended up working for a roofing company. It seemed like he was doing alright.
   3. Don’t be naive like me… One rule in southern Illinois my pops taught that I forgot on this one was, “At some point, they all break down and go back to their same bullshit.” I still see his grin.
   4. Jake put on the new roof, soffits, fascia, siding, corners, and skylights within the roof. Soffits, fascia… good. Everything else… not so good. There were gaps in the siding, the roof was still slanted, half the skylights were blocked by the framing, and a few other hundreds of things.
   5. My biggest mistake on this one: I paid him in full for the work… $10k just based on his pictures. Another dumbass move. I was F*cking furious when I came down to see there was garbage everywhere, nails on the ground all around the house. I rented a 20-yard dumpster and half of it ended up on the ground or the driveway.
   6. I started off cordial. Asking him to come to fix the areas needing fixing. It was simple shit that I could do, but didn’t have time to do… maybe I’m a bad guy for wanting to pay other people to do their work. Well, his cocky, arrogant response was only due to ONE reason… He had his money (Lesson 1). So, I did what was necessary. I threatened to put a lien on his house (a trick I learned from my pops) and report him to the Illinois roofing association that he was roofing without a license. I needed this place buttoned up before winter.
   7. I won’t go deeper and deeper, but this dude has come back to the house 3-4 times to redo certain areas 3-4 times EACH. 3-4 TIMES he has come back to do the roof and other items. He is just throwing money/time away continuously doing things incorrectly.
   8. And the excuses piling up about his car, his daughter’s school, his ex-wife, his left pinky toe, him turning into a woman… not the last one but you get the point.
   9. Lesson: Whatever your business is, e-commerce, web design, SMMA, lawn mowing, etc. Complete your tasks correctly the first time. Design the website right. Ship the correct orders. Launch the right Facebook/Google ads. Mow the lawn correctly. If you mess up, admit you were wrong and do it right the second time. If you can’t, admit that and offer a refund or something. Don’t be a loser who is too stupid and arrogant to learn or admit they suck.
      
      Remember, business is simple and complicated. You can choose to make it more complicated by:
      1. Not making mistakes and learning from them
      2. Ignoring complaints/issues
      3. Being a jackass
      4. Not finding ways to improve your systems for delivering your service/product.
      5. Being a jackass

 

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[Subsonic]

In the past 6 years of flipping houses (4 with my pops and 2 on my own), I have my fair share of stories about the loser contractors I have dealt with.


The losers that you run into in southern Illinois are bountiful. If you want to hire one solid guy who shows up and does the work correctly without charging up the a$$, you MUST go through 10-15 other guys first. The odds of finding someone that doesn't fall apart, scam you, jerk you around, and every other dirt bag move is very rare.


It would be a disservice to all the new and current forum users if I do not post the lessons I have learned on how NOT to run your businesses.


I will start with two and add more as I think of them.


ENJOY

1. Chase Chump Change, Forget The Big Bucks.
   1. I hired a dude from East St. Louis on Craigslist to install cheap Menards laminate flooring. The space was 650 square feet, he didn’t have insurance but did provide 4 solid references which I called up and they confirmed his work. $1.50/sqft as a quote was given.
   2. The first half of the flooring was great, to say the least. It was surprising how well it was tucked underneath walls and set up perfectly for trim pieces. The second half, however, was a nightmare. Jagged cuts, ugly lines, spacing so large I had to pump half a tube of gray caulk to cover it.
   3. Turns on when you pay a loser and he knows you have money, he’ll rush for his next chance to get a few hundred bucks to blow on his bitches.
   4. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. (I went through 3 losers before him that could barely operate). So I made a deal, if he puts up the baseboard trim and door trim, and it is done right, I’ll move on from the floor. (These are cheap a$$ houses, so it doesn’t need to be “perfect” but good enough was better than his shitty second half).
   5. Now he rushed, even more, to get some money for his hoes and be East St Louis rich…
   6. $185 is what he wanted so badly. I ended up having to redo ALL of the trim he put up because of how badly it was done. The house needed so much more done to it and if he played his cards right, he could have EASILY made $5k-$10k working for me.
   7. LESSON: Focus on where you can make the most money. If you’re chasing the hundred-dollar deals when you could be chasing the ten-thousand-dollar deals, you’re a loser. If you worry about spending $1000 to buy something that can buy back your time or bring in more money, you’re a loser. If you lose focus on quality and delivering on your word just to make quick money, you’re a loser.
2. Do It Right The First Time.
   1. Hired this guy, let's call him Andy that did a few houses with my pops 3-4 years ago. He was an on-and-off drunk going through a brutal divorce with 2 girls. I reached out for my one property closer to Springfield in hopes of getting the roof and siding done. Went through 6-8 guys/companies that were quoting jackass prices.
   2. Contacted Andy to see what he was up to (and if he was square). We talked in person and he seemed straight, got out of the divorce, and was able to get custody of his 2 girls. He ended up working for a roofing company. It seemed like he was doing alright.
   3. Don’t be naive like me… One rule in southern Illinois my pops taught that I forgot on this one was, “At some point, they all break down and go back to their same bullshit.” I still see his grin.
   4. Jake put on the new roof, soffits, fascia, siding, corners, and skylights within the roof. Soffits, fascia… good. Everything else… not so good. There were gaps in the siding, the roof was still slanted, half the skylights were blocked by the framing, and a few other hundreds of things.
   5. My biggest mistake on this one: I paid him in full for the work… $10k just based on his pictures. Another dumbass move. I was F*cking furious when I came down to see there was garbage everywhere, nails on the ground all around the house. I rented a 20-yard dumpster and half of it ended up on the ground or the driveway.
   6. I started off cordial. Asking him to come to fix the areas needing fixing. It was simple shit that I could do, but didn’t have time to do… maybe I’m a bad guy for wanting to pay other people to do their work. Well, his cocky, arrogant response was only due to ONE reason… He had his money (Lesson 1). So, I did what was necessary. I threatened to put a lien on his house (a trick I learned from my pops) and report him to the Illinois roofing association that he was roofing without a license. I needed this place buttoned up before winter.
   7. I won’t go deeper and deeper, but this dude has come back to the house 3-4 times to redo certain areas 3-4 times EACH. 3-4 TIMES he has come back to do the roof and other items. He is just throwing money/time away continuously doing things incorrectly.
   8. And the excuses piling up about his car, his daughter’s school, his ex-wife, his left pinky toe, him turning into a woman… not the last one but you get the point.
   9. Lesson: Whatever your business is, e-commerce, web design, SMMA, lawn mowing, etc. Complete your tasks correctly the first time. Design the website right. Ship the correct orders. Launch the right Facebook/Google ads. Mow the lawn correctly. If you mess up, admit you were wrong and do it right the second time. If you can’t, admit that and offer a refund or something. Don’t be a loser who is too stupid and arrogant to learn or admit they suck.
      
      Remember, business is simple and complicated. You can choose to make it more complicated by:
      1. Not making mistakes and learning from them
      2. Ignoring complaints/issues
      3. Being a jackass
      4. Not finding ways to improve your systems for delivering your service/product.
      5. Being a jackass

Great post. I have been looking to hire some buddies to work for my company and dealing with loosers is the biggest issue.

I made myself the rule to always have a guy I respect on every scene. If I need to hire a stoner, fine but then he's not going to jobs alone and he won't be allowed to talk to customers. I also won't have people that don't speak German fluently doing shit alone.

If I didn't have these 2 grear guys that basically jumped at the opportunity to work for 450 a month and 15 per hour I'd be I real deep trouble now.

 

[wyattnorton]

Great post. I have been looking to hire some buddies to work for my company and dealing with loosers is the biggest issue.

I made myself the rule to always have a guy I respect on every scene. If I need to hire a stoner, fine but then he's not going to jobs alone and he won't be allowed to talk to customers. I also won't have people that don't speak German fluently doing shit alone.

If I didn't have these 2 grear guys that basically jumped at the opportunity to work for 450 a month and 15 per hour I'd be I real deep trouble now.

Most employees are mercs.

They slut out and just jump on the best opportunity for more money and less hours... who wouldn't

The two guys I have working with me in landscaping are the rarest of rare. They are genuinely loyal guys to the core with how they work and look to solve problems instead of constantly looking to me.

They are paid handsomely for their experience and knowledge.

When you find the right guys, you treat them right.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

In the past 6 years of flipping houses (4 with my pops and 2 on my own), I have my fair share of stories about the loser contractors I have dealt with.


The losers that you run into in southern Illinois are bountiful. If you want to hire one solid guy who shows up and does the work correctly without charging up the a$$, you MUST go through 10-15 other guys first. The odds of finding someone that doesn't fall apart, scam you, jerk you around, and every other dirt bag move is very rare.


It would be a disservice to all the new and current forum users if I do not post the lessons I have learned on how NOT to run your businesses.


I will start with two and add more as I think of them.


ENJOY

1. Chase Chump Change, Forget The Big Bucks.
   1. I hired a dude from East St. Louis on Craigslist to install cheap Menards laminate flooring. The space was 650 square feet, he didn’t have insurance but did provide 4 solid references which I called up and they confirmed his work. $1.50/sqft as a quote was given.
   2. The first half of the flooring was great, to say the least. It was surprising how well it was tucked underneath walls and set up perfectly for trim pieces. The second half, however, was a nightmare. Jagged cuts, ugly lines, spacing so large I had to pump half a tube of gray caulk to cover it.
   3. Turns on when you pay a loser and he knows you have money, he’ll rush for his next chance to get a few hundred bucks to blow on his bitches.
   4. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. (I went through 3 losers before him that could barely operate). So I made a deal, if he puts up the baseboard trim and door trim, and it is done right, I’ll move on from the floor. (These are cheap a$$ houses, so it doesn’t need to be “perfect” but good enough was better than his shitty second half).
   5. Now he rushed, even more, to get some money for his hoes and be East St Louis rich…
   6. $185 is what he wanted so badly. I ended up having to redo ALL of the trim he put up because of how badly it was done. The house needed so much more done to it and if he played his cards right, he could have EASILY made $5k-$10k working for me.
   7. LESSON: Focus on where you can make the most money. If you’re chasing the hundred-dollar deals when you could be chasing the ten-thousand-dollar deals, you’re a loser. If you worry about spending $1000 to buy something that can buy back your time or bring in more money, you’re a loser. If you lose focus on quality and delivering on your word just to make quick money, you’re a loser.
2. Do It Right The First Time.
   1. Hired this guy, let's call him Andy that did a few houses with my pops 3-4 years ago. He was an on-and-off drunk going through a brutal divorce with 2 girls. I reached out for my one property closer to Springfield in hopes of getting the roof and siding done. Went through 6-8 guys/companies that were quoting jackass prices.
   2. Contacted Andy to see what he was up to (and if he was square). We talked in person and he seemed straight, got out of the divorce, and was able to get custody of his 2 girls. He ended up working for a roofing company. It seemed like he was doing alright.
   3. Don’t be naive like me… One rule in southern Illinois my pops taught that I forgot on this one was, “At some point, they all break down and go back to their same bullshit.” I still see his grin.
   4. Jake put on the new roof, soffits, fascia, siding, corners, and skylights within the roof. Soffits, fascia… good. Everything else… not so good. There were gaps in the siding, the roof was still slanted, half the skylights were blocked by the framing, and a few other hundreds of things.
   5. My biggest mistake on this one: I paid him in full for the work… $10k just based on his pictures. Another dumbass move. I was F*cking furious when I came down to see there was garbage everywhere, nails on the ground all around the house. I rented a 20-yard dumpster and half of it ended up on the ground or the driveway.
   6. I started off cordial. Asking him to come to fix the areas needing fixing. It was simple shit that I could do, but didn’t have time to do… maybe I’m a bad guy for wanting to pay other people to do their work. Well, his cocky, arrogant response was only due to ONE reason… He had his money (Lesson 1). So, I did what was necessary. I threatened to put a lien on his house (a trick I learned from my pops) and report him to the Illinois roofing association that he was roofing without a license. I needed this place buttoned up before winter.
   7. I won’t go deeper and deeper, but this dude has come back to the house 3-4 times to redo certain areas 3-4 times EACH. 3-4 TIMES he has come back to do the roof and other items. He is just throwing money/time away continuously doing things incorrectly.
   8. And the excuses piling up about his car, his daughter’s school, his ex-wife, his left pinky toe, him turning into a woman… not the last one but you get the point.
   9. Lesson: Whatever your business is, e-commerce, web design, SMMA, lawn mowing, etc. Complete your tasks correctly the first time. Design the website right. Ship the correct orders. Launch the right Facebook/Google ads. Mow the lawn correctly. If you mess up, admit you were wrong and do it right the second time. If you can’t, admit that and offer a refund or something. Don’t be a loser who is too stupid and arrogant to learn or admit they suck.
      
      Remember, business is simple and complicated. You can choose to make it more complicated by:
      1. Not making mistakes and learning from them
      2. Ignoring complaints/issues
      3. Being a jackass
      4. Not finding ways to improve your systems for delivering your service/product.
      5. Being a jackass

I have done some of the same stuff (house renovations and flips) although I don’t do it full time as a business. Have had every problem you have. Good contractors are almost impossible to find everywhere and if you find 1 good one, ALWAYS use them, don’t take them for granted. Your threads are gold.

 

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[Oso]

Most employees are mercs.

They slut out and just jump on the best opportunity for more money and less hours... who wouldn't

In their defense, this only happened after companies spent the better half of 40 years telling people they're nothing more than a number, and that their health and wellbeing will always come second to profit.

 

[alexkuzmov]

If you want to hire one solid guy who shows up and does the work correctly without charging up the a$$

Went through 6-8 guys/companies that were quoting jackass prices.

Sounds to me that you are still learning another lesson.
You wanted cheap work, you got cheap results.
The lesson is: "The cheapest work is the most expensive work"

If you dont like that, we have a saying in my country: "I'm not so rich that Ican afford to buy cheap shoes"

 

[wyattnorton]

Sounds to me that you are still learning another lesson.
You wanted cheap work, you got cheap results.
The lesson is: "The cheapest work is the most expensive work"

If you dont like that, we have a saying in my country: "I'm not so rich that Ican afford to buy cheap shoes"

Flip a house and let me know.

Edit:

I understand what you’re saying. When I buy a 20 pack of cheap sunglasses for $10, I would be a fool to expect them to last long.

Like I said in my post.

1) These guys start off strong, then end up breaking down and getting lazy/undisciplined.

2) That’s why you need to go through 5-10 to find a quality guy like @thechosen1 says that you can “cling” to

I get what you mean. When flipping a house, you have your profit margins right.

I bought it for $15k and my upper end to sell it is $125k

Therefore, I can’t drop $20k into just the roof and still do all the rest of the renovations.

That’s how you go broke in this game.

 

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[alexkuzmov]

Flip a house and let me know.

Like so? MINDSET - RANT - Savour the Pain

 

[wyattnorton]

Like so? MINDSET - RANT - Savour the Pain

Respect.

 

[alexkuzmov]

1) These guys start off strong, then end up breaking down and getting lazy/undisciplined.

Or worse, they jerk you around for two months and then say things like "Well you said it wasnt urgent so I though I do it slower", yea not urgent, meaning you can do it 1-2 weeks from now, not 2 months from now....

2) That’s why you need to go through 5-10 to find a quality guy like @thechosen1 says that you can “cling” to

What I`ve found is that you can minimize this by hiring specialists for each job.
While working with a generalist is usually cheaper, the quality suffers.
I had almost 10 different people working on the last apartment.
One for the floors, one-two for the walls, one-two for the kitchen, one for the bathroom, one-two for the air conditioners and I cant remember the rest.
And I made sure to do all the electrical wiring myself, cause when they get that sh!t wrong its an incredible pain in the a$$.

Spreading the work this way help you find the right people faster and you can do the work in less time.
Also its like hedging the risk.
Once you find a good kitchen guy, you know your kitchens will be good from now on.

You need to think of your time as a resource as well.
Decreased margins for more expensive work can translate to more time for you, so dont forget to include it in the calculation.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

Or worse, they jerk you around for two months and then say things like "Well you said it wasnt urgent so I though I do it slower", yea not urgent, meaning you can do it 1-2 weeks from now, not 2 months from now....


What I`ve found is that you can minimize this by hiring specialists for each job.
While working with a generalist is usually cheaper, the quality suffers.
I had almost 10 different people working on the last apartment.
One for the floors, one-two for the walls, one-two for the kitchen, one for the bathroom, one-two for the air conditioners and I cant remember the rest.
And I made sure to do all the electrical wiring myself, cause when they get that sh!t wrong its an incredible pain in the a$$.

Spreading the work this way help you find the right people faster and you can do the work in less time.
Also its like hedging the risk.
Once you find a good kitchen guy, you know your kitchens will be good from now on.

You need to think of your time as a resource as well.
Decreased margins for more expensive work can translate to more time for you, so dont forget to include it in the calculation.

The more subs you hire, the better the outcome dollar-wise, but the more oversight and management required by you personally and the less scale (unless you are just really good). It is hard to scale projects that way. You need good managers you can trust, which again, are hard to find and is a difficult system to set up (referring more to the main business I'm a part of rather than flipping houses - a project-based business).

At some point you are blurring the line between being the guy with the money who finances the projects and being the GC/contractor yourself. Do you want to pay the middleman or be the middleman? You can make more money on just this one project if you swing the hammer yourself too. But what about time and scale?

In the main business I've grown up with,there are 4-5 project managers who each manage anywhere from 1-10 jobs at a time. You could compare them to house projects but they are industrial projects. They have a foreman below them, and the foreman has a crews of guys working below them. This is very common in many industries because it works. There are business tasks, project management tasks, crew management tasks, labor tasks, etc. on and on

 

[alexkuzmov]

The more subs you hire, the better the outcome dollar-wise, but the more oversight and management required by you personally and the less scale (unless you are just really good). It is hard to scale projects that way. You need good managers you can trust, which again, are hard to find and is a difficult system to set up (referring more to the main business I'm a part of rather than flipping houses - a project-based business).

At some point you are blurring the line between being the guy with the money who finances the projects and being the GC/contractor yourself. Do you want to pay the middleman or be the middleman? You can make more money on just this one project if you swing the hammer yourself too. But what about time and scale?

In the main business I've grown up with,there are 4-5 project managers who each manage anywhere from 1-10 jobs at a time. You could compare them to house projects but they are industrial projects. They have a foreman below them, and the foreman has a crews of guys working below them. This is very common in many industries because it works. There are business tasks, project management tasks, crew management tasks, labor tasks, etc. on and on

I get that, but if the problem is finding the people to do the work, I think a good solution to that is to hire more at a time. My idea was to build the "team" quicker this way and then step back, after you have it.

P.S. Although I dont know if I would ever give up the wiring to someone else, lol

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

I get that, but if the problem is finding the people to do the work, I think a good solution to that is to hire more at a time. My idea was to build the "team" quicker this way and then step back, after you have it.

P.S. Although I dont know if I would ever give up the wiring to someone else, lol

Actually the best solution is to build an HR system and procedure.

You can hire any electrician or electrical biz to do the wiring, there are hundreds if not thousands of such contractors. You are limiting yourself.

 

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[wyattnorton]

Or worse, they jerk you around for two months and then say things like "Well you said it wasnt urgent so I though I do it slower", yea not urgent, meaning you can do it 1-2 weeks from now, not 2 months from now....


What I`ve found is that you can minimize this by hiring specialists for each job.
While working with a generalist is usually cheaper, the quality suffers.
I had almost 10 different people working on the last apartment.
One for the floors, one-two for the walls, one-two for the kitchen, one for the bathroom, one-two for the air conditioners and I cant remember the rest.
And I made sure to do all the electrical wiring myself, cause when they get that sh!t wrong its an incredible pain in the a$$.

Spreading the work this way help you find the right people faster and you can do the work in less time.
Also its like hedging the risk.
Once you find a good kitchen guy, you know your kitchens will be good from now on.

You need to think of your time as a resource as well.
Decreased margins for more expensive work can translate to more time for you, so dont forget to include it in the calculation.

For sure.

One trick I found out for these areas was to post Craigslist ads for each job.

I did one for roofing, floors, trim, plumbers, etc.

The guy that did the roof was amazing. A bit of a hot head but he got it done for $4k in labor and another $4k-$5k in materials.

He was a rare breed for me. My plumber is a beast too, but that took 4-5 guys to find.