If I can't start a successful business, should I just buy one?

[GoGetter24]

My point was that he's trying to get his monthly nut

And it's a solid point; the issue with finding and fulfilling a gap in the market is that it's in the chance-based realm of years, but your rent is in the damn-certain realm of now. I think some people forget this in their encouragement of a shoot-for-the-moon golden goose.

Buying a business (with thorough due-diligence of course) has one clear mathematical benefit: rents, stocks & interest rates run at above 10-1 multiples, but businesses can run at multiples of 3-1 or less, in spite of the fact that merely by a business not being dead it has already beaten the 10-1 or greater failure rate of new businesses.

The biggest risk is you then running it into the ground out of incompetence (e.g. as DeMarco's business' purchasers did), but you've got a lot more control of your competence than you do of the market's response.

 

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[MakeMoreMoves]

Sure, you can be successful. It's just a constant uphill battle for not a large payoff. I know because I've done a business that sold a commodity product (t-shirts with custom designs have a substantial amount of fungibility) using advertising (Google Shopping). I don't recommend it.

You're fighting over a tiny amount of customers with a bunch of other competition selling the same stuff. It's a miserable business model.

If you want a counterexample look at some of the INSIDERS progress threads where people are literally begging the owner for the product.

That's the kind of business I want to be in.
-------
Just buy a t-shirt business that makes $3k/month though. Report how it goes. It'd be an interesting case study.

I am actually really aware of this. This is completely Red Ocean. What I have seen of others that got successful is that they normally have an initial success in a Red Ocean type business. Then they use the profits generated from the red ocean business into a blue ocean type. Not sure if you read the book blue ocean strategy. Blue Ocean strategy does say to reduce and eliminate to keep costs down for creating new markets. But even with this, it tends cost much more than a red ocean. Take profits or sell off red ocean once it became successful and fund the blue ocean.

 

[njsinko]

You've got to find a pain somewhere, and fix it in a way nobody else can or has. It takes big money to break into a competitive business like t-shirts. Companies invest millions in marketing to get a new company like that off the ground. It's too competitive to be done with a shoestring budget.

You need to go in somewhere where you have a pain that needs solving, and where you have very little competition. E-commerce is tough to break into unless you have cash to invest. Remember, you shouldn't try to out walmart walmart.

There are a lot of online t-shirt stores out there with big marketing budgets that will CRUSH you into the ground if you try to make a move on them or get into their space.

For instance - try to do one thing that is super unique that nobody else is doing. Years ago I thought it would be cool to start on online tshirt retailer that only produced one type of shirt - Black, and only with text on it. One font, one size. You type what you want it to say in a box, and it's sent to you.

Nothing else but custom text printed on a shirt.

 

[MakeMoreMoves]

If you can't start a successful business (self limiting belief btw), what makes you think you can run one?

Tried for 3 years...empty handed still. I gotta accept reality at some point. What am I gonna do, keep trying till I'm 80 years old? I have been stuck in mom's basement because of this. If you read the OP, I mention about having initial data set for facebook pixel and pretty much 80% of tactics I know is if you have customers already. Fustrating if you don't have any customers. Getting the ball rolling and initial customers is the hardest part. I know because I have not successfully done it yet. I just suck at getting a viable business concept or initial customers. If customers are already there, then it is easier. I'm wasting time and lots of money.

Oh..Longinus. You changed your profile pic. So you have seen all my posts haha

 

[Xeon]

Facebook targeting seems no brainer, but I got nothing. I have a T-shirt with a Cat that is lifting weights. Seems easy enough...target people that like Cats and Must also match Weight Lifting. I have tried generic cat lover and generic fitness and have also gotten granular to cat magazines/rescue shelters & fitness icons, fitness brands. Interest that only that subset of people would truly like and...Nothing.

If you're ok with it, would it be possible to message me your cat t-shirt design as well as your competitors so that I can see how it looks like and maybe critique the design?

In the post by Get Right above, he mentions the guy who had 21 failures in trying to sell his t-shirts before getting lucky and earning a measly profit of ~$30. This is not the way to go (maybe you're going this route, ie: run t-shirt campaigns and throwing money on FB ads hoping to strike a homerun).

If you want to go this t-shirt route, you've to treat it like a brand, a business, not some teespring or teeturtle campaign (as I've said many times.....the only fastlaners here are teespring and their similar spin-offs).

Build your cat apparel brand up, have a decent genuine story behind (e.g: "A cat saved my son's life 5 years back and since then, I've always been...blah blah blah....", gotta be real though), connect with cat lovers on IG, then show them you've beautiful cat swag for them.

I'm betting your t-shirt website is probably plain and cookie-cutter, with just one or few cat t-shirts in generic t-shirt mockups....

Once you've a brand people love, you can draw rubbish on it and they'll still buy it.
When Johnny Cupcakes got started way back in the mid-late 2000s, his t-shirt designs were fugly and no way in hell am I gonna pay $35 - $40 for crap. But he had a story.

Story > branding > products

 

[MakeMoreMoves]

No. No. NO. Taking your example:
- Money-Chasing Mentality: the focus is on your products. You are saying "I have this, you guys come buy it. And by the way, I don't care what you like. Just buy this"
- Value Mentality: the focus is on people. You are saying: "Hey I know you guys value T designs. Tell me what you like, and I will deliver it. I know you don't know me yet, so here the guarantee I give you.". Or maybe you go further and find what things people should look at to buy designs. You give that content for free.

The end result is design sold. The approach and the things you do... vastly different.

If you don't get the nuance. You are in for a lot of trouble.

But there is no incentive for a Money-Chaser to not care what somebody likes. Even if someone is a money-chaser, there is incentive for him/her to make a good product that provides value because those are the ones that sell and make money. I guess it was for this reason that I never saw money chasing as bad, because you are incentivized to create value. If you don't, then you won't make money.

Back to the basic T-shirt example, I made that design because I thought people would actually like it and see value in it. I didn't just arbitrarily stick random designs on it and blast ads. I didn't go, oh let me just make this design and blast ads and say "Oh who cares if they like it?"

I really don't think anyone in the world money chaser or not creates products intentionally that do not provide value. All the products that don't sell are created by people with the assumption that they provide value.

 

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[sparechange]

@biophase

l

@MakeMoreMoves Any updates?

 

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[MakeMoreMoves]

I am starting to accept the fact that I just suck at getting a business off the ground. I have tried businesses where I spend months developing a product and run ads and...crickets. I have also tried extremely low investment businesses like T-shirts because I realized how much a waste of time and expensive with the trials of building your own from scratch. Even the T-shirt thing, I ran the ads...and crickets.

So it seems to have any success on Facebook Ads (what I have been really trying to hone in on) you need initial data set in order for the facebook website conversion ad to work. They say so themselves. But if I can never get the initial data set, then I can never leverage the power of facebook.

On top of the facebook pixel funnel is View Content. Easy enough to get. I run a traffic ad with interest based targeting. I get enough View Contents (data) in just a couple of days for facebook to use. Create New Ad to Optimize for View Content. Since this ad is optimized for VC Conversion, I see a lower cost per view content. So the next part of the funnel is to get the Add to Cart to fire. Based on what I read, with enough View Contents, eventually some people will ATC. Then you get the initial ATC data set. Then optimize for that that and slowly move down the last part of the funnel until you can optimize for purchases. This is where you are suppose to be making bank.

But...nobody is ATC, so I always get stuck here. Because I can never get initial data set I'm stuck. I keep thinking it is a product problem, but then I see other ecommerce websites selling shirts or products in my opinion worse than mine. If people can see value in their products, how can they not in mine? they literally have nothing different. Examples are checking sales rank on on Amazon for T-shirt designs, they are obviously selling. Ecommerce selling websites showing their numbers and their store, profiting. These are not assumptions.

Retargeting ads are run as well, but cost is like 2x more and no sales either.

Also reading blog posts on facebook ads that say the best strategies are lookalike audiences, but you need an initial customer set...F*ck me.

Just recently, I have looked at websites that sell ecommerce businesses. Like Shopify Exchange, and decided to creep on their websites and kind of shocked how these businesses even get sales, they look terrible. I mean the websites don't look any better than mine. They just look like generic aliexpress dropship and they are claiming profit of $3k a month LOL. If they didn't show me their numbers, I would assume all these websites get $0 sales.

Facebook targeting seems no brainer, but I got nothing. I have a T-shirt with a Cat that is lifting weights. Seems easy enough...target people that like Cats and Must also match Weight Lifting. I have tried generic cat lover and generic fitness and have also gotten granular to cat magazines/rescue shelters & fitness icons, fitness brands. Interest that only that subset of people would truly like and...Nothing.

 

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[johnp]

haha 3-4 years at this is nothing.

From the sound of things. I wouldn't be surprised if you have an issue with your:

a) offer(s)
b) positioning
c) mindset

Fix those three things and you'll gain traction faster than you think.

with that said... I do think a case can be made for buying a business instead of starting-up from scratch. Not as a shortcut though.

 

[MakeMoreMoves]

What is your end goal? Let's start there.

$5k/month profit through ecommerce store through digital ads

 

[Brendan8450]

Anything local to start? ..Facebook is a dreamcoat for all to ride on...change focus n localise..

 

[MakeMoreMoves]

You're money chasing.

Your whole post talked about getting ads to try and get people to buy a t-shrt with a design on it. Not on building something that people actually want/need.

Find a problem -> Solve it. The problem could even be that the competition sucks and provides zero value.

$5k/month isn't that much money either.

The reason I have this mentality is that I have read many case studies. The looked at their products and it might be that I am not their target demographic, but I see nothing of value in their offering let alone a USP. But they are making sales based on my research. So when you tell me that I got in with the mentality of trying to get people to buy a T-shirt with a design, you are telling me that I am not offering value?

I mean just because I go in with this mentality, doesn't mean my product is void of value. So if I created oh I don't know a product that helps people better walk, but go in with the mentality of trying to get people to buy this walking-assisted product, now it contains no value? T- shirt designs provide value by having a person resonate with it. How about all the case studies of people selling T-shirt designs in the hundreds every month? People want T-shirts with designs.

Look at Shopify Exchange, I mean I look all of those and I see like no value at all. But they still making money. The problem is that see people going in with the mentality of no value and can become successful.

Yeah I know $5k/month isn't much. But I still haven't gotten to it.

 

[BucketHolly]

I am starting to accept the fact that I just suck at getting a business off the ground. I have tried businesses where I spend months developing a product and run ads and...crickets. I have also tried extremely low investment businesses like T-shirts because I realized how much a waste of time and expensive with the trials of building your own from scratch. Even the T-shirt thing, I ran the ads...and crickets.

Do not give up yet. You're going somewhere. Just have faith in yourself.

 

[MakeMoreMoves]

My view on this is difficult to articulate.

Would I be doing everything I am doing just for charity? Just to add value without a potential to make money? No. One of whys is financial independence, for me and my son. Which implies $.

I learned along the way that shifting my mentality from going after money to going after value is the best way to achieve it.

When I subscribed to this forum, I was a pure money chaser. Just looking for ways to make value. Two things happened in a few months that made me switch to focusing on finding ways to offer value.

Since then, the way I see things, the ideas I find, the way I think about ideas changed. And that doesn't mean I don't pay attention to the potential of making profit. I do. But this is no longer my primary filter.

But that's me.

At the end, it comes down to whether you give people things they perceive of value. Be it because of the products itself or the way you market it.

I guess I just desire freedom so damn much it causes me to focus on money all the time. I am caged for the majority of the day. I spend most of the day doing things against my will, but gotta make ends meet and have enough money for all my trials or I will be trapped for life. Money is the key to these handcuffs. The market just never seems to find any value in anything I produce.

 

[W. Sabria]

I'd really like to see what some of these t-shirts look like.
Can you share a link? The curiosity is killing me!

 

[Niptuck MD]

The market is never wrong, it is the market, it's never confusing, you just don't understand it yet.

introduction to ken's new book lol

 

[Pebblepottage]

I've marked this NOTABLE because it is a great example of why people never succeed.

Notice how what's going on in someone's head AFFECTS the business selection and its execution.

Notice how @MakeMoreMoves has an excuse for everything, or a reason why such "given advice" is to be discounted.

Notice how things are tried, but not really committed to.

Notice how money, and quick results is the priority, not a legitimate value skew based on relative value.

Observe and learn.

I concur with that common saying. Positive mindset is golden in any undertaking as it will yield positive results. And a positive perception to any positive advice is value.

 

[SEBASTlAN]

I would buy a struggling business and see where you can add some value and then resell it.

I used to do that a long time ago, buying ugly/underoptimized sites on DigitalPoint marketplace but they had good traffic and after some marketing and redesign could resell them on Flippa for a decent profit.

 

[ChrisV]

I've marked this NOTABLE because it is a great example of why people never succeed.

Notice how what's going on in someone's head AFFECTS the business selection and its execution.

Notice how @MakeMoreMoves has an excuse for everything, or a reason why such "given advice" is to be discounted.

Notice how things are tried, but not really committed to.

Notice how money, and quick results is the priority, not a legitimate value skew based on relative value.

Observe and learn.

but but but.. he’s got a ferrari as his pic

he’s got to know what he’s doing!

 

[ChrisV]

Tried for 3 years...empty handed still.

3 years? wow.

bro alot of people have sunk like 6 businesses before they had enough quarters to park somewhere for an hour

welcome to entrepreneurship..

I gotta accept reality at some point. What am I gonna do, keep trying till I'm 80 years old?

yea

I have been stuck in mom's basement because of this.

Wow you get to live rent free? What I would give to be you.

man i just started reading this thread... this ain’t gonna go well if i reply to the whole thing


to answer the question, no don’t buy one... you’re just gonna sink it

 

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[MakeMoreMoves]

I mean take look at these: All Listings | Ecommerce Websites & Businesses for Sale | Buy and Sell Online Sites

These definitely look like money chasing ventures, but they are obviously making sales? I mean technically you can logic it both ways right?

Money-Chasing Mentality - You are just trying to get people to buy your T-shirt designs with Ads, you are a money chaser
Value Mentality - You are creating T-shirt designs that resonate with the consumer that aligns with their worldview and therefore provide value.

But at the end of it, both are just selling T-shirt designs.

 

[MakeMoreMoves]

^^^ THIS!

The market is never wrong. Marketing 101 through 701 combined in that one statement.

So you had a tshirt of a cat lifting weights? And you can't figure out why it didn't sell? I can. It's dumb. I'm not a cat person, but I know many people that are, and they think cats are cute and clever. Sometimes funny in their own innocent way. There you go - those are the attributes cat lovers love. Lifting weights makes, um, no sense.

So, knowing rule #1 - the market is never wrong - drop it and move on.

If you're hung up on cats, I vaguely remember a porn cartoon about cats. This is the most unexciting and uninteresting kind of porn I can imagine, so I don't have any input to how that movie went. BUT I do remember seeing the female cats that looked very seductive, and the male "star" cat, wearing a fedora with one fang hanging out - not two, just one - with a smirk on his face. I remember that because I study and appreciate art. That was from maybe 30-40 years ago, but I still remember it. I thought it was clever to use cats as the characters instead of people.

So there you go. You can make a "pimp" type cat with a fedora, flipping a coin in one hand, and resting his other hand on his hip - saying "Whaz Up?" Now, I wouldn't buy that, but I think it would be ten times more interesting than your design of a cat lifting weights. Cat lovers are weird people - that might just hit a nerve with them and they might buy it. At least it makes "some" sense.

Get OVER a product that doesn't launch. The market is NEVER wrong.

I've had things I've done in business that didn't sell - and I've done them on purpose. Rather than have someone decide IF they like a product or not, I'd rather have them CHOOSE which product they like the best. Having something really cheap makes other things look better -and having something really high priced makes other things look like more of a bargain. Psychology 201.

How do I know all this stuff? I put MYSELF in the place of the customer, and try to figure out why I like, or don't like something. Then I fix it. You could have a series of cat images - one running - one high jumping - one going over a ski lift - and THEN maybe your weight lifting cat MIGHT fit in.

But if it doesn't - after a good healthy trial run - take it behind the barn and SHOOT it. Then, move on.

Not enough of the world loves cats. How about horses? I'm not a horse person, but I like horses 100 times more than I like cats. Now that I think about it - who DOESN'T love horses? Nobody!

Foooood for thought. So much good advice here. You just have to break that "first love" connection with your idea and let it die. But, I would try the "series" of cats Olympics thing first, before giving up.

View attachment 20640

Found it - Fritz the Cat (1972)

Just so you know, I made the design based on objective sales data, not based on my own intuition because I know its doesn't matter what I like. It only matters if the market likes it. If a shirt has objective data proving sales.

Anyways, when I ran the facebook ad. I got a few comments, like "OMG I need to have this", "I'm going to buy this" and...nobody did. This also happened with a product I did years ago as well. People commenting that they actually bought it, but nobody ever did. But yeah, abandoning this.

do both.

buy a business that is making a little money. improve it. sell it. ...... hell of a lot to learn there. great experience. start an INSIDERS thread. tag me in it. we'll come help.

while doing that, work on your own business. get customers. find a market. improve a product. get it up and going. go through MJ's steps in Unscripted . maybe keep that going in this thread.

both will help you improve your mindset. both will give you experience. both give you fastlane avenues.

staying where you are is not an option. get to work.

Been really browsing some more of these websites and I can't get myself to purchase them. I am blown how bad these websites are and they actually get sales. I could swear they are all fudging numbers. The funny thing is that I have tried selling the same products as some of these guys years ago. If that is the case, then I never really had a product problem. I kept talking about ads in the OP because that is what I think my problem is. But everyone telling me that I have a product problem. If others are selling the same product and actually making it, then the problem should be my ad targeting. I have tried various interest based targeting. Might buy just for experimentation.

Some of these websites are playing a dangerous game and looks like they are mostly getting their sales off IP infringement and knock offs.

EDIT: Another thing I noticed with these businesses that are based off instagram is that everything seems very organic. No hashtags on any of their posts, but hundreds of likes and real people. It seems that adding hashtags on instagram just attracts bots. Every time I have tried to build and insta page for a new venture, I just get responses from people obviously running a bot. I never get real people through instagram. Same with facebook, I target first world countries and get some guy probably from a clickfarm liking my ads, even though he isn't through my targeted country.

I am saying this here because I guess the algos aren't in my favor? I have sold on eBay for a longtime and I know right away when the algos are in my favor. There are rare times, when eBay will literally shit on my listing so bad and I have to keep making a new one because I know the algos destroyed it. I am thinking due to all my previous ventures, maybe I permanently destroyed my facebook account.

 

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[MakeMoreMoves]

buy a non internet business. hit craigslist and the local ads. you want $x/mo, right. start getting portions of $x.

get out of 'this world is keeping me down' spiral. start making progress.

Hm...in this day an age, it seems that if you aren't online, you're pretty much irrelevant. Also, I don't see how this will help me getting a non-internet business when my goal is to build a successful internet business at $5k/month. These brick-mortar stores are expensive, like 200k just for a grocery store or something.

 

[MakeMoreMoves]

Seems you have all the answers then. Surely I wouldn't suggest a path that I had already walked or had helped others walk as well.

You've owned multiple businesses both on and offline. You've bought and sold businesses. You are currently running several now. Even your school age kids are running several.

In your vast experience, the ONLY way to get to $5k/mo is to be online w/ Facebook ads or have $200k for a grocery store.

To sum up your thread: to be successful, completely ignore all advice given, especially if given by people who have already done what you are trying to do.

Online businesses are more affordable for a poor sap like me. I mean probably you can afford some $200k+ business, but I can't at this moment. $200k was the low end for offline business. I am not ignoring your advice, it just isn't practical for me. Going that much in debt with a business would be lifelong handcuffs. I am also all towards online because I can't even remember when was the last time I went to a store or gave my attention to an offline advertisement. Magazines, billboards, storefront table? I feel like it is a step backwards. It may be profitable now, but not for the foreseeable future. I also wanted location freedom.

 

[MakeMoreMoves]

Everyone, I have decided it wasn't the question of buying or starting from scratch. I have just been wasting time putsing around in these low value, low impact businesses. Thanks for insight.

 

[WJK]

I concur with that common saying. Positive mindset is golden in any undertaking as it will yield positive results. And a positive perception to any positive advice is value.

It will only yield positive results IF you take positive actions!

 

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[WJK]

but but but.. he’s got a ferrari as his pic

he’s got to know what he’s doing!

Cars can be rented by the day. Expensive ones can be rented by the hour. And they can be financed and repossessed. I've seen a lot of "flash-in-the-pan success stories. Here today, gone tomorrow.

 

[ChrisV]

Cars can be rented by the day. Expensive ones can be rented by the hour. And they can be financed and repossessed. I've seen a lot of "flash-in-the-pan success stories. Here today, gone tomorrow.

thanks lol