ETHICS IN THE FASTLANE: How low will you sink for wealth?

[MJ DeMarco]

Go away and mod something.

Actually my mod isn't going away... YOU ARE.

People if you want to disrespect the folks who make this board possible with their time and hours, your time here will be short-lived.

OP is gone.

I have zero tolerance this disrespectful shit.

 

[MidwestLandlord]

Is it even possible to do 100% ethical in business? I mean look at millionaires and billionaires they screwed someone else over to get where they wanted to be?

I'm a millionaire, so I'll list all the people I screwed over to get this far:

Hang on, I'm thinking...

Hmmm...

........
......
....
...
..

There MUST be someone I screwed over! The Script says all wealthy people are unethical crooks, so it MUST be true.

I'll keep thinking and get back to you, I'm sure there is someone on the list.

End sarcasm.

In all seriousness,

There are unethical rich people and unethical poor people. Just like there are ethical rich people and ethical poor people.

"Wherever you go, there you are"

 

[pickeringmt]

Historically, a lot of the largest winners in the Fastlane have been revealed to have a less than savory vision of what is ethical in the marketplace.

From throwing chickens into a grinder (Tyson) to low wages (Walmart, Carnegie Steel) to adding salt to soda to increase thirst (Coca-Cola), to lobbying politicians to get laws past that protect and/or benefit your corporation, if you can name a well-known enough Fastlane winner, I'm sure I could dig up something that calls their ethics model into question.

My question is, WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE AT UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR?

If everyone lines up and says, "I'd never do anything unethical" because it's the "right" answer, then I will be disappointed. If you want to win all the time, you have to cheat. Even saying, "I'd pay my employees the absolute lowest I can get away with, even if it means that health insurance would burden them" is one man's no-no but another man's necessary evil.

With everyone on here cloaked in anonymity concerning their businesses, it should open the forum to a little honesty in what you consider ethical behavior that others may not.

So.... how low would you sink?

This entire concept is flawed - you are insinuating that these businesses were built on unethical practices, when in fact they only move in that direction after deviating from the original core principles that made them great. I'd add that the people that put things like this into practice aren't generally the people that actually build businesses either - they are generally someone that comes in looking for ways to squeeze more out of a system already in place.

You can make a lot of money from a bad ethical framework, but it will never be sustainable. In that sense, poor ethics has no fastlane application because it violates the principle of scale and magnitude - there are inherent long-term limitations in bad business.

You make the best choices you can. All the time. That isn't just business, that is life. You can't outrun the consequences of your own choices.

 

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[G-Man]

Is it even possible to do 100% ethical in business? I mean look at millionaires and billionaires they screwed someone else over to get where they wanted to be? Great example is Mark zuckerberg how he screwed over his mates. Not say I would do it, I like to be as ethical as possible but thought it was worth bringing up.

If you're living in a western democracy in 2017 you have more opportunity than literally anyone in the history of the world to make a shitload of money in a totally honest way.

This idea that you have to choose between being decent and being rich is just something envious people concocted to justify their own broke-ness. I had to listen to this schlock all the time when I worked for NGOs. It's as surreal as sitting at a table full of Macbooks in an air conditioned room, teleconferencing to people in 4 different countries simultaneously to talk about how capitalism doesn't work.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

If you create value, don't lie, and don't force anyone to purchase, then you're doing ethical business.

On top of that, your tax dollars create more good than any of those asshats that say running a business is unethical.

It's as simple as that. No reason to complicate it.

 

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[CrocodileX]

I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything I wouldn't do, so lemme share with you some unethical stuff I've done as a lifetime entrepreneur.

*cue my "Chunk" confessional from The Goonies*

1. In the 90's, I wrote a script that manipulated mp3.com's radio station ranking system, putting all of my stations on the top in every genre. Then I wrote a script that hit up bands on mp3.com and told them my company would air them on my stations (mp3.com paid royalties every time someone listened to your music) if they went over to the competitor, IUMA, and registered an account. At the time, IUMA paid $15 per referral. Needless to say, all of these bands followed my landing page's simple 1-2-3 instructions and I ended up generating $11,000/month in revenue until IUMA was bought out by Vitamin-C. Soon mp3.com folded and that venture was over.

MY FEELINGS? Eh. It was a prick on the finger for bands and I made more money than anyone I knew.


2. I signed up for a "dialer" affiliate program and placed them on auto-generated free adult sites in exchange for 25% commission. A dialer's purpose was to be a trojan horse that would (unknowningly to the person who voluntarily downloaded it thinking it was a free porn engine) disconnect your dial-up connection and route you through an Int'l long-distance number that charged upwards of $1/min. Most victims were hard-working Slowlaners with families and when they got the $700 bill for accessing "freelesbians.exe", they would quietly pay it and stop using the service before the wife foun out. I made about $10,000/month in the late 90's from this.

MY FEELINGS? I told my mother what I had done and she asked me if God would approve of me using my natural coding skills to do this. I felt terrible and stopped doing this on my own accord, forfeiting over $2,000/week for 2 hours work.


3. I signed up and peddled "VigRX" on landing pages hosted on free servers. VigRX was supposed to give you "male enhancement". The kicker here was it was endorsed by RON FREAKING JEREMY!!!! There was this low-res, Real-Player video of him endorsing the product so I figured it was legit and used their marketing materials with my own hand-created landing pages. All of a sudden, I was getting $200-$800 checks in the mail every week and I was ecstatic. I didn't know anything about the product, but it obviously cost a lot of money because my commissions divided by page views were astronomical. I then started getting emails from angry customers. I don't know how they found my email address but they did. They were so upset for spending so much money on snake oil. The product ran its life cycle and stopped paying out accordingly after about a year.

MY FEELINGS? I unknowingly propogated a scam product after being duped by the fame of the endorser. These guys who spent money on this were rich. I didn't feel bad at all. I actually kind of laughed before refusing to use that email account anymore because I didn't want to see the angry victim letters.


Those are 3 things I've done that are unethical but paid huge amounts of money. And those are my honest feelings on the outcome.

I've been an entrepreneur since childhood and have struck it rich quite a few times. Each time though, the payday disappeared overnight due to an uncontrollable event.

I read TMF and learned a lot. I want to learn a lot about the structure of entreprenurialism so my next venture isn't so hit-or-miss. I learned that to make it in the Fastlane, I need to create VALUE. Real value, not preceived value. If you exploit a system for pay, you are a slave to the very system you are killing by exploiting it.


In the future, would I do things that cross my ethical line in the name of wealth? YES. Business is business, nothing personal. Would I build my process on something unethical? NO. Would I do anything like the things I listed above? HELL NO.

I am not a bad person. I feel like TMF made me a better person because it clarified why each one of my businesses ultimately failed and how I could've seen it coming. At the same time, I know from experience that money changes you. When you are making real money, the pressure to keep that money coming in changes your ideals. It's easy to say, "I'd never do anything I considered unethical" when all you have is a dollar and a dream.

I would honestly like to say though, for those of you angels out there who would refuse to do anything they weren't 100% comfortable with in the name of wealth, I don't think you stand a chance in this game. Prove me wrong by posting here in front of your estate and say it was all earned without one necessary evil. I apologize, but I believe wealth comes at a price and one of those prices is sometimes having to look the other way while pushing the "execute" button, no matter how small of the consequence.

 

[Digamma]

Look around you, unethical behavior is a cornerstone in economics.

All the examples you name are just supply and demand. Overcharging, as you call it, is not unethical because the right charge is what people are ready to spend. Unless people are forced to buy, than there is no ethical debate.

Now, to be clear, I agree with you - partially. Ethics is a line in the sand. It's not absolute. It can't be.
What is more ethical, lying about the tickets, snitching on the liars, or putting a snitch in the midst of your employees? The world is never black and white, regardless of any narrative Western people raised between cushions like to believe.

 

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[jazb]

No thanks. people like that give fastlane/capitalism/business a terrible name.

Always try to do what is right, even if it costs you money. when its all said and done, at least you can look back on your life knowing what you did what was right. I can't imagine the examples you gave would think the same.

 

[AllenCrawley]

 

[JAJT]

This is such a loaded question I don't even know where to begin

I think you'll find that everyone has different lines in the sand and it can often be all over the place across many different issues.

One person's fair market value is another's "unconscionable compensation".
One person's choice of globalized outsourcing to utilize the best of a global economy is another person's "downfall of America"

There's really no easy answer to this stuff and most of it comes down to personal beliefs.

Quite frankly it's not the kind of discussion that makes for great dinner conversation

 

[Lex DeVille]

You guys know there's more than one type of ethics right?

Just pointing it out because I'm about to pass ethics/sociology after 5 tries. F*ck yeah persistence!

Utilitarian Theory = Ethical if it's good for the majority.

Deontology = Ethical based on why the act was taken in the first place.

Virtue Ethics = Ethical based on your character. Do you possess the characteristics of a virtuous person?

Relativism = Ethical is based on your cultural background. Is it okay in your culture?

Emotivism = Ethical if it makes you feel good.

Ethical Egoism = Ethical if it moves you closer to your goals / benefits you.

There's a lot of ways to call something ethical. But you know what's even more useful than pondering ethics all day?

Taking action and modifying your ethical approach based on the response of your customers.

To do that you need customers.

Get back to work! haha

 

[pickeringmt]

Ok, riddle me this? Why do hospitals bill my insurance $28 for a $5 dinner? Why do they bill my insurance $12 for a 50 cent plasic urinal container? That is UNETHICAL, yet is very sustainable.

Dude this is obviously NOT sustainable. Look at the state of the healthcare industry and tell me it is in good shape. Government involvement has done much more to hurt healthcare than business ever will.

How about this... why does Ralph Lauren take a shirt that sells for $10 at the swap meet, put his logo on it, then sell it for $50 at Macy's? It''s unethical to overcharge people by most people's standards. Is his brand so valuable that it's worth a 500% markup? It's just a logo, the shirt is the exact same one that is sold by other vendors for 1/5 the price.

This is just a poor understanding of what business is. Ralph Lauren takes a $10 shirt and makes it worth MORE than $50 in the eyes of a consumer (they wouldn't pay $50 for it if it wasn't worth it). People get paid. Jobs are created. You are happy wearing your shirt. $40+ of VALUE is CREATED from a business transaction. This is $40+ that would not exist if that shirt had not been made, sold, and purchased.

The idea that you don't think it is worth it is what makes you think you have some right to call it "unethical". It is thinking like this that demonizes business - the single most positive force on this planet.

I suggest you look around yourself. You take for granted the millions of benefits that good business has on every person.

And the ultimate kicker is that we truly DO have a say in what we believe in, because business is entirely driven by our own approval - in the form of the dollars we choose to spend on goods and services. This is why bad business is doomed to fail, and good business will always win.

Look around you, unethical behavior is a cornerstone in economics.

This statement alone demonstrates a lack of knowledge and understanding in the areas of business and economics. You are trying to tell me that the cornerstone of a system of mutual exchange for benefit is based on bad values and unethical behavior?

The problem here isn't a flawed system, it's a flawed understanding based on opinion rather than fact.

 

[PureA]

You know within when you have crossed the line.

 

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[Digamma]

I'm actually a member of Mensa... so if you wanna play the "you prove you know nothing" game, well I could be just as petty and upload a pic of my Mensa ID card and tell you that there is a 98% chance you do not have the ability to learn what I can learn and therefore are mathematically inclined to perform less than me over any long-term forecast.

I'm not bitter. Someone on here said I "This statement alone demonstrates a lack of knowledge and understanding in the areas of business and economics" and is a personal attack on my comprehension of what this entire forum is all about.

Well, to be fair, you refuted the concept of supply and demand as a basis for the economic system because it's unethical.

 

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[axiom]

It should be noted that there is a reason that it can appear as though business people lack ethics. Its because the media only wants to focus on unethical people. Monsanto, Enron, Madoff, and many others get so much publicity that people generalize it to all of business.

Those who are ethical operate under the radar, and the media doesn't really care for them. "Company X Has Perfect Accounting Records" doesn't exactly scream 'breaking news'.

 

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[Lathan]

Is his brand so valuable that it's worth a 500% markup?

Yes, apparently.

The consumer is responsible for the purchases they make. They could just have easily bought the swap meet shirt for 1/5th the price but they trust Ralph Lauren as a brand. A product is worth what people are willing to pay for it.

By your logic, even selling a product for a dollar more than it's actually worth would be unethical. Are you suggesting that all companies should aim to break even? A 'business' isn't a 'business' if it's not making money. Everyone would just be spinning their wheels breaking even. Business makes the world go round.

 

[Lathan]

My point is, ethics are subjective. What one person feels is unethical someone else doesn't. My point of this thread is, what would YOU be comfortable doing that YOU feel is unethical?

So in other words, this thread is completely pointless?

To whoever is telling me I demonstrate a lack of knowledge and understand about business blah blah. Go look in the mirror. Where are your millions? Where are they if you know everything and I am so remedial?

To those of you who are on a high horse and want to tell me how uneducated I am for posting my opinion, good for you. You are all geniuses and should be writing books for MJ DeMarco to read and learn from since you have such an extensive history of performing well as an entrepreneur. I'm actually a member of Mensa... so if you wanna play the "you prove you know nothing", well I could be just as petty and upload a pic of my Mensa ID card and tell you that there is a 98% chance you do not have the ability to learn what I can learn.

I think YOU should look in the mirror. You sound bitter. No need to get all defensive. No one here is attacking you.

 

[theag]

OP is gone.

Jeez, you work for a few minutes and BOOM - miss the troll thread of the day

 

[Vigilante]

I will not intentionally deceive anyone or violate integrity for money. I don't like money that much. I want to be able to sleep at night. There's a lot of ways to earn an honest buck or more without doing things that are wrong. I also don't believe ethics and integrity are situational. Most things are black and white.

Usually, when people face ethical challenges in business, they center around chasing money. A conscious decision to take the high road or the low road.

I believe loosely in the law of attraction, or the biblical principles of doing onto others what you would want done onto you. It's not always the easiest. It's not always the most lucerative. But... maintaining decent integrity will always make you a better person.

I think it is worthwhile to consider though that people don't necessarily operate from that same paradigm. So, being polyanish in business --- assuming people shoot straight or deal straight, can be a fatal mistake.

 

[FionaS]

Personally, I strive to be as ethical as I possibly can. I'm not in the Fastlane, yet, but I would assume that that would translate over as well. From how I'd treat employees (competitive wages, healthcare, 401K matching, etc) to how I run the business itself. I have no interest in being at all unethical (consciously, of course, mistakes happen, which I would fix ASAP).

I started volunteering at the police department at age 14, I guess all their talk about ethics has been kinda ingrained in me since then - lecture after lecture (continuing in college as well) about ethics. It literally makes me sick to my stomach to do something I know is wrong. Yes, people have different ideas of what's right and wrong. I may do some things that I believe are ethically right that others believe are wrong. I don't know what, but I'm sure I do something 'wrong' in some peoples' minds.

Do what's right, even when no one's watching. That's my motto. Even if it costs me money, gives me difficulties, or makes some less than ethical people want nothing to do with me. It's worth it.

 

[Charnell]

RIP in peace, OP.

Also...

If this discussion is just gonna dissolve into people trying to validate themselves

I'm actually a member of Mensa... so if you wanna play the "you prove you know nothing" game, well I could be just as petty and upload a pic of my Mensa ID card and tell you that there is a 98% chance you do not have the ability to learn what I can learn and therefore are mathematically inclined to perform less than me over any long-term forecast.

Wat?

I could care less what you think about anything. Go away and mod something.

How much less could you care exactly?

 

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[jon.a]

is it unethical for me to make free stupid casual smartphone games that get people addicted and waste their lives?
I'm not forcing anybody to play them.

Nope, just make good ones.

 

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[SlowlaneJay]

You guys know there's more than one type of ethics right?

No I didn't know that. Now I'm even more confused.

I think I'm going to choose bliss through ignorance, unwatch this thread, and do what feel right from now on

 

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[Formless]

I have absolutely zero interest in being the next billionaire.

There is no need for me to make compromises.

 

[Ninjakid]

To those of you who are on a high horse and want to tell me how uneducated I am for posting my opinion, good for you. You are all geniuses and should be writing books for MJ DeMarco to read and learn from since you have such an extensive history of performing well as an entrepreneur. I'm actually a member of Mensa... so if you wanna play the "you prove you know nothing" game, well I could be just as petty and upload a pic of my Mensa ID card and tell you that there is a 98% chance you do not have the ability to learn what I can learn and therefore are mathematically inclined to perform less than me over any long-term forecast.

 

[DeletedUser394]

When I was 8 years old or so, I would go to Walmart with my mother. While she was shopping, I would remove and then steal all of the little plastic tabs from the coat hangers that indicate the size of the garment.

These things:

I quite literally had a large bag full of them at home. My goal was to melt them down using hot water in the bathroom sink (I actually attempted this) and create a large ball of plastic. That way I could sell the bulk plastic to a company that could then use it to mold new plastic items.

Looking back, that was pretty unethical. lol

Sorry Walmart, my greed blinded me back then.

Edit: My bulk plastic operation went on for a while, so it's not like it was a one time thing haha.

 

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[RHL]

On a tangential topic, the book Outliers by Malcom Gladwell outlines a man with a 180+ IQ who has made breakthroughs in physics but can't figure out how to make enough money to live anywhere but his mother's basement modest horse farm.

Ding ding ding. IQ and business are somewhat related, but I feel like the more extreme you are as an outlier, sometimes it leads to really weird behaviors or ideas that alienate you and hold you back from making money.

Case in point, a friend growing up was the child of a chemist and a physicist who were both professors at an Ivy League school. Taught himself to speed read and would read one full-length (250-500ish) page book every morning before breakfast. Got a 1600 on the SAT (back when that was perfect) at age 14, had an armfull of AP 5's. He imported an illegal developer kit for the Nintendo 64 and was making and selling his own N64 games when he was 15. Sadly, they didn't sell well, because he was obsessed with factual accuracy and making things he wanted, not what other people wanted, so what you got was like a lot of really boring space lander games and geopolitical games.

He also got kicked out of a college course for calling the professor a "retard," and hasn't held a single job for more than two years since graduating. He gets bored and refuses to work. He walked out of a dream job at one of the largest blue-chip software companies on earth, his boss actually called the state police to confirm he was still alive, that's how quickly he severed contact.

I don't know what his IQ was, but I think (and I don't think his parents would question it) that he was decisively smarter than his Ivy-educated, Ivy-professor parents. Probably 150 IQ MINIMUM. Yet his life is not something I would want. He's severely overweight, has weight related health problems, and lives on a friend's couch.

So if you're smart, great, use it. If you're not, great, use the skills you do have. But it's a limiting belief that genius=success, average/below-average=fail. In reality, focused effort=success, scattered genius=fail.


As to the OP, I try never to be unethical. To me, ethics is a matter of personal infringement and personal harm, so if a website has a rule like "no self promotion," and I skirt it in some way that doesn't hurt the bottom line of the site owner (because the site doesn't sell anything or advertise or whatever), I don't consider that to be unethical because annoyance and harm aren't the same. I would never do something to intentionally defraud a customer or get them to spend more than they really want to. I only want them to give me a lot of money if they're sold that they're getting a lot of value. I sleep like a baby at night.

 

[SlowlaneJay]

If you claim your product does 'X' and it doesn't. Then no, it's not ethical. The snake oil reference is ridiculous.

I wish I could agree with you. Several of my family members are quite taken with homeopathic medicine. They claim it works wonders.

It doesn't.

I don't like the homeopathic folks selling my family their snake oil, but it does provide value to my family, even if it's just placebo. And they're happy to pay for it.

But if you do, it will sell.

Then you will need to disappear when it doesn't work.

You can make $1,000,000 a week selling bullshit penny stocks. That's selling value (the bullshit promise of high, effortless ROI) without being able to back it up. Then you can wind up in jail and lose everything you owned like Jordan Belfort.

If you are enticed to sell snake oil, rebill people for suppliments they don't want, and sell cancer curing calcium pills with a clear conscious, then go for it. These things do add value to people's lives. The temporary satisfaction of thinking they are going the right route.

But ultimately, you will have to disappear one way or another. Oftentimes sooner as opposed to later.

And is it worth it when the same effort and know-how can be applied to generating wealth without that risk?

To answer the question of ethics, a good line in the sand might be "if you have to disappear afterwards, it's probably unethical."

Just because you can make a killing selling penny stocks, or snake oil, or w.e, doesn't mean you should.

If you lay awake at night wondering if what you're about to do is ethical, it most likely isn't.

 

[CrocodileX]

My point is, ethics are subjective. What one person feels is unethical someone else doesn't. My point of this thread is, what would YOU be comfortable doing that YOU feel is unethical?

To whoever is telling me I demonstrate a lack of knowledge and understand about business blah blah. Go look in the mirror. Where are your millions? Where are they if you know everything and I am so remedial?

I think overcharging is unethical. You may not. I think it is unethical to mark up an item too high when it's fair market value is a lot lower. I think theaters are unethical for charging so much for candy. You may not. Ethics are all a matter of opinion.

To those of you who are on a high horse and want to tell me how uneducated I am for posting my opinion, good for you. You are all geniuses and should be writing books for MJ DeMarco to read and learn from since you have such an extensive history of performing well as an entrepreneur. I'm actually a member of Mensa... so if you wanna play the "you prove you know nothing" game, well I could be just as petty and upload a pic of my Mensa ID card and tell you that there is a 98% chance you do not have the ability to learn what I can learn and therefore are mathematically inclined to perform less than me over any long-term forecast.

 

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[CrocodileX]

I'm not bitter. Someone on here said I "This statement alone demonstrates a lack of knowledge and understanding in the areas of business and economics" and is a personal attack on my comprehension of what this entire forum is all about.

I'm not being defensive. This thread's topic is about what you would feel like you would do that goes against your personal beliefs, not who thinks they know more about economics versus those who don't.