Hunting Whales: Is there An Ethical Way To Do This?

[Roli]

The video below describes how mobile game companies have found a very unethical way to make A LOT of money. They basically advertise a game that doesn't truly exist, at least not in the sense they advertise it. The game acts as a hook to get you to download, once you have the game you realise it's actually one of those "civilisation games" where you build up bases, territory, etc.

Most people immediately uninstall when they realise they've been duped, however a small percentage of people will play the game anyway, and an even smaller percentage will become whales. These so-called whales, will spend thousands and thousands on these games.

Clearly the companies are using a version of the 80/20 rule and they know that with enough downloads, the one percent of people who become whales, will more than pay for all the advertising and make them a huge profit to boot.

This depresses me, these companies skirt around the law by putting a version of the advertised game, within the actual game they are selling. Thus, they get away with what is essentially false advertising. I hate the fact that so much cash is being made from legally fooling people, because others will copy and it will (or rather, has) become the standard. Where are all the ethical business people gone? Are we doomed to watch the unethical ones make all the money?

One thing that has always made me proud of this forum, is that people on here do have ethics. When new users come by to float questionable ideas, they are quickly piled on and told in no uncertain terms, that scammers are not welcome here.

Anyway, what do my fellow fastlaners think about this, and - regardless of industry - is there an ethical way to produce the results these mobile game companies are getting?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhajAqI66nU

 

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[StrikingViper69]

I always wondered with these ads, why doesn't the company make the game people want? The bait and switch seems totally unecessary.

 

[Roli]

In my opinion, ethics has no place in business. As a business I will do whatever it takes to succeed and to make sure I and my employees make as much money as possible. There are no limits to that, just as there are no limits to war. I will not sit around in a room with my guys and be like "how can we save the planet?". Most who claim otherwise are either hypocrites or naive. There's also the possibility they are saints, but I wouldn't count on that.

I wasn't talking about saving the planet, I was talking about behaving in an ethical non-scammy way. Don't you agree? Or are you saying you don't mind ripping people off or deceiving them, so long as you make money?

 

[Roli]

I always wondered with these ads, why doesn't the company make the game people want? The bait and switch seems totally unecessary.

He asks that question in the video, and the answer is simple. Because those games are not very good at making money, they are just good at getting people to download. The civilisation games can be monetised in so many different ways, and the people who get addicted to them, are totally fine with it.

 

[Roli]

The latter is being SMART – not scammy, although some people would see it the other way.

I am one of those people.

 

[Roli]

Define "scammy", "ripping people off" and "deceiving them". Those are very murky terms.

If you are an honest person, they are not murky terms.

 

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[jbg]

I don't know about ethics too much, only thing I follow is Golden Rule. If I for some reason got brain damage and started playing mobile games, and got into this situation, I don't think I would feel scammed. Simple "Okay, this is trash, lesson learned" would be most probable thinking about this. There are way worse things going on in the video game and tech industry. They are just exploiting the end results of decade long process of phone addiction. So I don't think this is that unethical.

From the other perspective of the creators. I have no clue how these people motivate themselves to create, develop, maintain and push such garbage. Maybe I'm too naive person, and maybe this is my limiting belief, but I don't see how this would lead to anything productive and valuable in the world. Universe, God, pure randomness or whatever put you on this Earth to enjoy your time and you end up doing shit like this, out of your own choice, is beyond stupidity. But that doesn't make it unethical, it's just garbage IMO

 

[Lex DeVille]

If you are an honest person, they are not murky terms.

Even the words "honest person" are murky. What one defines as ethical, another defines as a scam. What one defines as "honest" another defines as "blunt" and another defines as "narcissistic" or "toxic."

Businesses can't base themselves around what is "ethical" because it differs from one to another, regardless of what anyone wants to believe about the universality of ethics, morals, etc.

Psychics are horseshit. Astrology is horseshit.

I know both of these to be true enough that I wouldn't spend money on them. But I'm excellent at cold reading, and great at bullshitting horoscopes. Whether I cold read, bs horoscopes, or even if I truly believe I'm channeling the universe through my physical body...it's all still horseshit.

More importantly, there are plenty of people, even among this forum, who gladly pay for that horseshit, because, even when your terms or even when every single page of a website says, "this is all horseshit, buy at your own risk," they still buy...

I don't think it's scammy to sell timewasters a waste of time. The way to avoid scammy psychic businesses and fake horoscopes is...don't participate. The way to improve the market if you really believe strongly in your version of ethics is to build a business that fits that idea.

 

[Lex DeVille]

I am entirely honest

I too, am entirely honest...by my own definition of the word

 

[SEBASTlAN]

Depends on the whale...

Tbh every tactic has an expiry date. This one strategy happened to pan out (without understanding the long term damage done to their brand), but I'm willing to bet on a long enough time horizon that the companies/developers that make the most amount of money for the longest amount of time are the ones who aren't resorting to such methods for a quick buck.

Don't be tempted by the unsustainable.

 

[Supa]

I mean, just look at the forum and MJ‘s books. He has and still does to this day prove over and over again, that you can be an exceptional business person AND have a heart.

 

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[Panos Daras]

There are no limits to that, just as there are no limits to war.

Is this the general sentiment of the people inside this forum? Just curious. Even in combat, there are rules of engagement.

 

[Kevin88660]

Define "scammy", "ripping people off" and "deceiving them". Those are very murky terms.

Do I encourage people to be Nigerian princes, get money, and then run away with it? No.

But what about setting up a guarantee for your product, and then setting conditions for it to make sure that people are likely to fail to meet them and qualify for the guarantee? The latter is being SMART – not scammy, although some people would see it the other way.

There is internet and reviews.

Bad reputations don’t sell.

It’s a misconception to think being scammy and shady wins. Someone has a killing business, did 19 things correct one thing probably ethically grey, haters will just label “bad guys win again”.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

In my opinion, ethics has no place in business.

And yet, weren't you throwing shade on Hormozi for his gym marketing tactics?

The duplicity is astounding.

 

[Kevin88660]

No, my opinion is a fringe opinion here, not the general sentiment.


The internet and reviews are all fake. Dumb people listen to reviews, the only reason why I collect reviews for my business is because dumb people ask for them. I never look at any reviews when I hire or do business with anyone, precisely because reviews are all made up. I will ask to see people's work, and judge based on that work whether I want to work with them + personality traits, the most important of which are loyalty and honesty. Of course, a recommendation from someone I know goes a long way, BUT, that's not just a "review". It is someone I know and trust vouching on behalf of this person.


This isn't true. I will repeat the argument once again: I care the most about my reputation. You, or anyone else, whom I may have wronged, do not care about my reputation except in-so-far as you want to take revenge for a perceived wrong I've done to you. But that's not something you think about day and night.

Whereas I think about my reputation day and night. I manage it day and night, and make sure it is what I want it to be, not what you want it to be.

I have lots of tools that I can leverage to get rid of negative press & publicity – starting from buying people off, to paying companies to remove their reviews, to swarming your negative publicity with lots of positive ones, to more advanced things such as creating contracts that prevent it, or threatening the posters of negative reviews with lawsuits and getting my lawyers after them. You are never going to fight harder than me when it comes to MY reputation – it just doesn't make rational sense for you to do that.

So the naive belief that "internet and reviews" will put an end to cut-throat business practice is just that: naive. I will defend my reputation tooth and nail, without any limits. You will never fight me tooth and nail, without any limits. There is an inherent asymmetry in our desires when it comes to my own reputation. I desire to maintain it a whole lot more than you can possibly, rationally, desire to harm it. And therefore I will invest more resources to win the battle.

In addition, consider all the testimonials Hormozi put in his Gym Launch book – most of them are bankrupt. People who claim their life was changed LOL. Everything changes people's lives – they read a book, immediately after, they think their life has changed. It's all imagination and exaltation, not the truth. Seek them out later, and you will find that their life wasn't really changed at all. This is the majority of people – it is so easy to get reviews off them.

It is much easier to invest in good product/service that sell, then to have bad product and service and try to buy over the world into thinking it is good.

Hormozi is successful and popular because he always gives much more than what he takes. The good old advice was that if you split a cake of 10 units you take 3 and give the 7 to the other party everyone likes you and gonna work with you.

Hormozi is basically pushing to the extreme that he is taking 0 or negative 2 leaving the other party 10 or 12. I see this pattern throughout everything he does.

The whole idea of screwing people to take their money doesn’t even work in the short run. Because to scam people into paying you you have to earn their trust. You don’t earn their trust in one deals but ten deals over a long period of time. You might as well be building something that is not a scam.

Hormozi is the guy who will swipe his own credit card to work for free for his customers to gain trust. Success is about ruthlessness but a lot of people got it wrong. It is about being ruthless to yourself not others.

 

[RightyTighty]

This is a thought-provoking thread and it’s good to see varying opinions. Defining your own view of “ethics” goes hand in hand with defining the “value” you’re providing. If a product has destructive tendencies (real or perceived) does that affect the value, or is value strictly determined by the purchaser’s satisfaction? Many would find catering to specific groups to be “wrong”. It should be remembered that, just like the buyer, the seller has the option to not participate in markets they consider unsavory. You have to figure it out for yourself.

Caveat emptor applies in any economic structure, but terms of service should not be misleading. Guarantees are expected to align with the quality, anticipated use, and anticipated life of a product. A merchant shouldn’t have to cover any warranty for a product that has been abused, but they shouldn’t tout a great guarantee if it contains byzantine procedures that render it ineffective. But where is the line? The requirement to register a product in order to have an enforceable guarantee is probably not considered unreasonable for an expensive product but may be viewed as shady for a commodity item. Once again, you have to figure out for yourself what you’re okay with (notice I didn’t say “…what is FAIR”).

The bottom line is that right and wrong are mostly subjective and you’ve got to decide what you can sleep with and what you want your brand to be. If you want to be respected only for your wealth then that’s your choice, but I think (hope?) most of us would consider that a hollow victory (but that same “most of us” should realize that if you made that choice you probably don’t give a rat’s a$$ what anyone else thinks about you).

All of that said, if societal norms would label you as unethical, my personal preference would be to have very limited social contact and zero business contact with you. But that’s just me.

 

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[Panos Daras]

I said that what he realized is unimpressive and lacked substance for those reasons (ie it's not sustainable) + he is a hypocrite because he doesn't own up to it.

Have you publicly admitted wrongdoing in a similar situation?

 

[Kevin88660]

I remember someone who knew a billionaire from my country. That billionaire got sick with cancer. He went to a hospital in Italy for treatment, private one. He arranged to pay after his surgery. They did the surgery and when he got the bill, he took the bill and ran away from the hospital, without paying anything. A billionaire.

You don’t realize how ruthless some people are. What they’re willing to do to succeed. And he’s not the exception, he’s the rule.

Again, this is the REAL WORLD. Most of the people who are broke here are broke because their ethics hold them back. I’m convinced that that’s the truth. If you want to be ethical stick to being an employee — as an employer you will need to make ethical compromises.

So often I read here about something not being right — who cares, if it makes you money, do it, and come back to fix the world when you’re rich.



Then why are many of the gyms he worked for bankrupt today? Literarily take his book and start researching them. He’s infinitely more successful than ALL his clients. How is that possible if he “always gives more thab he takes”?

The billionaire didn’t get rich by dodging bills!

The misconception starts at multiple layers.

Many rich people are “illquid asset rich” but cash poor.

First of all you never know how rich people are if you don’t know their full financial number. Millionaire billionaire are just vague numbers being throw around.

Bill Gates is true lord because he diversified way early.

Elon Musk didn’t really escape from the risk of bankruptcy until he cashed out shares in the 2021 top and further more recent year using the “twitter acquisition excuse”. He was living on bank loans with Tesla shares as collateral and if Tesla goes bankrupt so does he.

A lot of the real estate billionaires have huge liabilities in their balance sheet and with this ongoing recession many could be just undeclared bankrupt waiting for some miracle.

A lot people think rich people are rich sitting on piles of cash. These are minority. Many of them are still on the casino table playing the game and once their asset cannot cover the liability they go south very quickly.

The “billionaire” who dodged the bill. I bet for a sure he cant pay!

People who made big money quickly without many exception took big risk. Their risk tolerance is what sets them apart.

 

[Panos Daras]

Yes, of course. Why wouldn’t I? There’s nothing shameful about doing what’s best for your business and your people. I fight for my tribe — not for anyone else. If we can make a world-changing impact my job is to facilitate that. Part of the facilitation is getting access to money.

When I had no money I’d do anything to get it. Early on in my career I’d do a better job than was asked for, and then ask for more money for the same project. I had no shame. I did a deal with some terms, and then in the middle of the deal I’d switch the terms.

Some let you ride them. Others don’t.

I remember someone who knew a billionaire from my country. That billionaire got sick with cancer. He went to a hospital in Italy for treatment, private one. He arranged to pay after his surgery. They did the surgery and when he got the bill, he took the bill and ran away from the hospital, without paying anything. A billionaire.

You don’t realize how ruthless some people are. What they’re willing to do to succeed. And he’s not the exception, he’s the rule.

Again, this is the REAL WORLD. Most of the people who are broke here are broke because their ethics hold them back. I’m convinced that that’s the truth. If you want to be ethical stick to being an employee — as an employer you will need to make ethical compromises.

So often I read here about something not being right — who cares, if it makes you money, do it, and come back to fix the world when you’re rich.



Then why are many of the gyms he worked for bankrupt today? Literarily take his book and start researching them. He’s infinitely more successful than ALL his clients. How is that possible if he “always gives more thab he takes”?

I 100% disagree, but I really appreciate your honesty. I choose not to participate when the game does not align with my values. Pursuing money now to fix the world later is a flawed strategy.

What if you never make enough money to truly make the impact you want on the world?

What if you burn out doing something against your values?

These are real risks that can destroy your long-term goals and personal well-being.

However, this doesn't mean you should avoid every opportunity that could make you money just because there is one small aspect you disagree with.

Virtue signaling can also very easily be an action fake.

Some compromise is unfortunately necessary, and everyone needs to find their own point where they draw the line.

 

[Kevin88660]

So the risk is real — some people think “why be an entrepreneur if I could end up 50 years old and broke, when I could work a corporate job making $150K/year and having fun?”

Interesting topic.

Because most slowlaners wealth are accumulated after age 50.

With the exception of super-hot industries, right place right time (joining to work in nividia ten years ago), I noticed this is the case.

After 50 they as they climb to high enough senior positions they earn much more than what they spend.

So when you are younger and earning less, relying on saving and stock market is actually a waste of time.

That’s why you see many high pay boomers refusing to retire. It was only the last 15 years they started to earn this high figures. They always want to struggle for 2-3 years to have better retirement lifestyles later.

Also during a recession the high payers are the first go. And they always find themselves harder to find a job. If you are at the top of the pyramid there are only so many positions in the market.

AI and remote work are going to hit the job market very hard. You are only paid as much as your cheap alternative option is to be.

The worst case is getting retrenched after age 50s, zero business experience, high family expense, with the only option is to sign up to drive a taxi.

 

[Roli]

I knew that, hence why I replied. I can see a Goody Tissue (Two Shoes) from miles away

In this case a "Goody Tissue" is someone who believes misleading people for money is wrong. I think you'll find I'm not in the minority here.

I'll always have an advantage over someone who sits down and asks how can I get [result] under the heavy constraints of ethics. No constraints gives you more freedom to get the result.

Translation: Ripping people off is fine, as long as you profit from it.

What one defines as ethical, another defines as a scam.

I'm struggling to think of an example of such.

I don't think it's scammy to sell timewasters a waste of time. The way to avoid scammy psychic businesses and fake horoscopes is...don't participate.

Agreed, however that is what the scammers say. From what I can tell, most psychics genuinely believe they are psychic, however, the ones who prey on the bereaved, knowing they are full of it, make me sick.

The way to improve the market if you really believe strongly in your version of ethics is to build a business that fits that idea.

True, I have no plans to go into the gaming industry. But I would say, it's not about having a strong version of ethics. The video I posted is talking about practices that are objectively misleading. There's no grey area here, and I'm sure the laws in various countries will eventually shut this behaviour down.

Don't be tempted by the unsustainable.

I will never scam anyone, it's not in my nature. I'd rather be broke.

Is this the general sentiment of the people inside this forum? Just curious. Even in combat, there are rules of engagement.

No, it's not, even @Black dragon admits that.

It’s a misconception to think being scammy and shady wins

Watch the video, those scammers are definitely winning.

The internet and reviews are all fake.

Erm, so reviews that I have left were fake? This is a funny statement that I don't fully know how to respond to.

I care the most about my reputation

Not enough not to admit on a public forum, that you are happy to engage in unethical business tactics like, setting up guarantees that can never be met.

t terms of service should not be misleading. Guarantees are expected to align with the quality, anticipated use, and anticipated life of a product

Exactly, it's not rocket science.

There’s nothing shameful about doing what’s best for your business and your people.

As long as it's legal and you're not scamming anyone.

When I had no money I’d do anything to get it.

Really, did you rob, did you kill?

Again, this is the REAL WORLD. Most of the people who are broke here are broke because their ethics hold them back. I’m convinced that that’s the truth. If you want to be ethical stick to being an employee — as an employer you will need to make ethical compromises.

This sounds like you are saying, "You will remain broke until you get comfortable with scamming people."

I don't think I have any need for your products, but after reading this thread, I would never buy from you, and would recommend that others didn't as well, both privately and publicly. But hey, who cares? There's always another sucker for you to rip off.

 

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[Roli]

You will buy from me — if you really come to need my products.

Nope, I'll say to myself, this person has admitted that he tries to (legally) fool customers. I'll go and buy from that person over there, who is a bit more expensive, but I trust a hell of a lot more. I'm not going to give him a chance to fool me once.

Ethically, I take scamming to mean anything that stacks the odds in your favor in what can be seen by some as unfair. That type of scamming is OK.

Exactly why we'll never do business together.

 

[AceVentures]

I run a concrete coating company. Client has cracked chipped dented broken slab and comes to us for help. We offer them a solution. They pay us for our work. Client wins. And we get paid.

We don’t need to be unethical or scam our way into getting paid. And if you do, maybe it’s because you’re not actually solving the customers problem and only masquerading as a solution.

 

[Simon Angel]

Scamming, misleading, and generally acquiring bad karma by unethical means ain't my thing either.

Here's why:

As a kid, I fought all the time because the only friend I had got bullied/beaten up a lot. So I'd find him crying in a corner and he'd tell me who did it.

At the time I was naturally religious and felt like I had a powerful connection with God, so I'd find the bullies and exact justice on them without any fear. It didn't matter that they were older than me and multiple of them, I'd fight them off myself and win every time – often because a few of them would run the moment they saw me, and I was left fighting a kid TWICE my size. Like, the fattest 7-year-old you've ever seen.

I'd run into him at full speed and plomp down on my a$$ because he used his gut as a weapon. But after getting up and doing it again 5 times in a row, he'd lose balance and fall and cry.

I remember that the teachers in kindergarten would punish me, pull on my ears, and isolate me from the rest of the kids, which I thought was very unfair because they never punished the bullies. So I was essentially the kindergarten vigilante of sorts.

Anyway, years later in school I kept up the fighting tradition, but for fun and usually with willing participants. I was slowly turning into a bully myself...

And one day, I ran into two kids a year younger than me and thought "Hey, why not extort a few quarters from them for ice cream?"

I told them I'd beat them up unless they forked up the cash in 5 seconds. They quickly complied, and while one looked terrified, the other simply said "I don't understand why you threatened to beat us up. If you'd just asked I would have given you the quarters anyway."

At that moment, his words shocked me and I was disgusted by myself. Destroyed with kindness. I kept up the bullying act and told them to run away, but I couldn't get myself to buy ice cream with the stolen money. I'd spent all my life up until that point fighting off bullies and being a harbinger of justice, now I'M the bully?!

So I spent hours running around the neighborhood looking for the kids to give them back their money. But, hilariously, every time they saw me running towards them, they would run away themselves. I eventually sneaked up behind them and apologized and returned the money.

After that, I've more or less always been Mr. Goody Two Shoes.

Fast forward to my adult life...

I had a client who used to run a digital agency. During that time, it wasn't too uncommon for him to copy the product/service his clients offered and sell it to another market (that they hadn't scaled to yet). He would pretty much always fail because the execution was crap, but the fact that he'd do that to his clients was appalling.

I continued working with him but told him I wouldn't help him scam his own clients, and I never did. I considered alerting the clients about it, but none of those projects took off, so I just sat—and enjoyed—watching him lose money.

Personally, I'd always do the most ethical thing possible EVEN if that involved some personal sacrifice. I'd rather live a harder life than live with guilt and a lack of integrity.

And haven't been religious for many years, nor do I have a strong connection with God anymore. We broke up a while ago. But it's not the fear of God that makes me the way I am, it's a principle of mine that I vowed to uphold.

 

[Kevin88660]

I can only fool you if you are weak and lack intelligence.

I would presume a guy like you would bother to read through contract terms, for example, and think things through, so you cannot possibly be fooled. Especially since you know how I operate in advance – you come in with the better chances in any negotiations. But maybe I overestimate you.

Another example of self-interest in action is this. Biden's family has advised him not to pull out of the race – do you think they did this for him? His own family man...

His son is the most fervent supporter of not pulling out. Why? Because he cares about his father? NO! It's because he has trouble with the justice system and thinks he can leverage the Biden name, which he wouldn't be able to do as well if his father wasn't President.

What about his wife? Do you think she really thinks Biden can do a great job? NO! She just doesn't want to hurt his ego and maintain her relationship with him, so she supports him.

What about his vice president, Kamala Harris? She wants to become the first black woman President of the US. And what better way to do that, than not even being elected, and stepping into that position mid-term. Then on top of that she will have another 2 terms to rule – genius!

Self-interest rules in virtually ALL cases, without exception. For 95%+ of society, "ethics" is just a coverup – none of them act ethically, all of them are guided purely by self-interest – regardless of what they publically say. Beneath the veneer of "ethics" lies the unacknowledged reality of self-interest.

In the business world the most basic fundamental ethic is to do a good job for your customer, provide far more value than what it costs them.

That’s why scamming and hurting your customer is not just unethical but stupid.

But because you are only accountable to the person transacting with you, you have little obligation to the person not in transaction with you.

There was a job that the capitalist will sell the rope to the communist for him to hang other capitalist. He didn’t care.

Pollution? My customers want factory made items cheap and good. If not caught then don’t give a fuk.

Mercenary working for despots shooting rebels who are not yet 18. Don’t care. They didn’t pay me.

Cut throat capitalism is giving 100 percent to those who pay you and not give a fuk abt those who don’t pay you. It has moral issues but it is NOT screwing your customers.

The good example is the lawyer Jayoma. He doesn’t care if his clients are rapist, murderer, sex offender he gives 200 percent effort to set them free.

Image what Jayoma did is to provide free legal defense, fully refunded if clients found guilty, contracts with hidden clause to scam his customers so they won’t get the refund. He will be nowhere this famous and successful.

 

[MitchC]

The OP is actually really interesting, I always wondered why they did that and didn’t just deliver on the promised game

Could there be a business creating the actual game that was promised? A lot of them look like they would be really fun to play

 

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[MitchC]

Paradoxically, you are someone whom I could trust about your ethics – since you admit to your own unethical behavior. But I can't say that about most people who are just virtue signalling, such as @MitchC who is poo poo-ing me everywhere.

Actually I’m just annoyed that an interesting thread was derailed with your nonsense again

I couldn’t give a F*ck about your lack of ethics or your thoughts on them

 

[Andy Black]

Over a decade ago I worked for a business doing paid search arbitrage. They'd buy visitors with Google Ads and have Google Adsense ads on the landing page. They made money when people left their page by clicking the ads.

I was amazed they spent €120k/day on ads and made a profit - with no product or service to sell, and by having awful landing pages.

I was even more amazed that, after years of buying 1m visitors a day, they hadn't gathered a single email address, and likely never earned a single repeat visitor.

All those technical smarts and clever solutions to stay compliant with Google's arbitrage policies, yet the business went "pop" the moment Google pulled the plug on them.

I always wondered what they could have achieved if they'd decided to build something remarkable, something worthy of repeat business and referrals. ("R+R=Profit" - Blaise Brosnan)

But alas, I think their moral compass was askew.

I don't know what they're doing now-a-days but I suspect that leopard never changed it's spots.

How you do anything is how you do everything.

 

[AceVentures]

If that's true, then you should have poo-poo'ed everyone else who derailed the thread by stating their opinions with regards to ethics in business more generally. Because almost everyone did that, including @Andy Black above or @AceVentures but for some reason you signalled me out. I wonder why that is... wait, I already know!

(you gotta love the self-contradiction of those who love virtue signalling – not only did you single me out, you actually liked @AceVentures post. Hmm, I wonder why that is, is it not derailing the thread?!)

Sometimes poop is all you get.

A new thread will rise… you’ll get another chance at a heartface or some gold bars.

Take the poop and farewell buddy.

 

[jbg]

I want to thank @Black_Dragon43 for sharing this, in what I assume what was an extremely honest accounting of his views. At least in my experience, people who care about their reputations to the extent you do don't share their thoughts in this detail on these kinds of topics.

I disagree with almost everything you said, but one thing I do agree with is that ethics have a cost, at least monetary one. And I don't mean this in an abstract way. In 2018 I was writing Ethereum smart contracts, running my own private nodes and was a speaker at a NFT conference. I fell into it because of a company I was working for at the time and generally being naive to the world. Combination of crypto bullshit and the CEO of that company having almost identical opinions as Black_Dragon43 made me quit it all together. I haven't done a single thing with crypto since. Now it's 2024, and those people are starting their second thing, and I'm just now building what I hope will finally become my first successful business.

Some days, especially when I'm feeling low, I'm wondering did I make the right decision back then? It wasn't even a decision to be honest, I just did it. Maybe I should've just scammed people and taken the easy money, when money was flowing around that bullshit, and cleared my conscience with money later. Who knows. I'm just writing this as an example, it's in the past, and I'm still betting that what I perceive as Karma is more important than that. But I don't know.

I also don't agree with @MitchC that Black_Dragon43 posts have derailed this thread. I don't know whether his posts on this topic are regular occurence here, I'm still relatively new here, and this is the first time I saw it. In the end, this Life game of ours is a multiplayer game. And some people do think like Black_Dragon43, even if I personally don't agree, it's still important to understand that. Without a shadow of a doubt, if I read this topic in 2016 or 2017, when I was in my early 20s, my life would've been so much simpler. I would've dealt with certain people much quicker and moved on. Instead of projecting my own thinking and views, I would've accepted people for what they are. This isn't me complaining, just explaining IMO why this thread has value, especially to younger people.