Lost all faith in freelance sites!

[dompie85]

I just recently hired a freelancer on those e-lance websites... Upwork/Odesk to build an MVP for my app. I thought to myself, he's cheaper than what I have been quoted by others. He's has presented work, his bio seems believable, lists extensive experience, and what not.

Things seemed to go very smooth from the start. Detailed Layout and Functionality instructions were sent, all seems well, lets get started... But, there was a catch.

Yes, this guy had experience in coding. I can see from the screenshots. But not only did he not read my instructions, he completely lacked the ability to DESIGN the App! I had to hold this F**king freelancers hand the whole time during the project.
Luckily, I got lucky. Upwork notified me and mentioned to me that there seems to be a problem with his account. Possibly something fraudulent. He contacted me and I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but it happened again the next day. 42hrs into my project (at $35 an hr) My funds were reimbursed (Thank god!!). Freelancer fired.

What is wrong with these people!? You try to give somebody work and they're playing games with you.

Now, what did I learn??

1) Be Prepared! In every way possible. Negotiate an "Example" before you commit to the full project. Also,
vague instructions will not cut it. Every little detail must be listed. EVERYTHING! I noticed this while viewing the build.

2) Be Aware! Productivity levels listed were shown as very productive. But screenshots seemed to tell an opposite story. After viewing the screenshots a little closer, I noticed is using 2 screens. Screenshots are only captured from one. Who knows what he could've been doing on the other screen. 42hrs into the project and nowhere near completed.

3) This is Business! (And my money). I gave him the benefit of the doubt once after his explanation, but not again. Your problems should NEVER be my problems. Especially when it is potential fraud! Its business, leave your emotions at the door.

4) Communication! This person lacked the ability to properly communicate with me. I asked if he read the instructions and understands the project, all I got was a simple "Yes". Thats it?? You seriously have no questions?? This was my pet peeve! Yes, I provided him with detailed instructions, but I don't even think he read them completely. Establish SOLID COMMUNICATION! ALWAYS!!

2 weeks wasted... Moving on... Need to get this MVP ASAP!

 

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[Lex DeVille]

I just recently hired a freelancer on those e-lance websites... Upwork/Odesk to build an MVP for my app. I thought to myself, he's cheaper than what I have been quoted by others. He's has presented work, his bio seems believable, lists extensive experience, and what not.

Things seemed to go very smooth from the start. Detailed Layout and Functionality instructions were sent, all seems well, lets get started... But, there was a catch.

Yes, this guy had experience in coding. I can see from the screenshots. But not only did he not read my instructions, he completely lacked the ability to DESIGN the App! I had to hold this F**king freelancers hand the whole time during the project.
Luckily, I got lucky. Upwork notified me and mentioned to me that there seems to be a problem with his account. Possibly something fraudulent. He contacted me and I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but it happened again the next day. 42hrs into my project (at $35 an hr) My funds were reimbursed (Thank god!!). Freelancer fired.

What is wrong with these people!? You try to give somebody work and they're playing games with you.

Now, what did I learn??

1) Be Prepared! In every way possible. Negotiate an "Example" before you commit to the full project. Also,
vague instructions will not cut it. Every little detail must be listed. EVERYTHING! I noticed this while viewing the build.

2) Be Aware! Productivity levels listed were shown as very productive. But screenshots seemed to tell an opposite story. After viewing the screenshots a little closer, I noticed is using 2 screens. Screenshots are only captured from one. Who knows what he could've been doing on the other screen. 42hrs into the project and nowhere near completed.

3) This is Business! (And my money). I gave him the benefit of the doubt once after his explanation, but not again. Your problems should NEVER be my problems. Especially when it is potential fraud! Its business, leave your emotions at the door.

4) Communication! This person lacked the ability to properly communicate with me. I asked if he read the instructions and understands the project, all I got was a simple "Yes". Thats it?? You seriously have no questions?? This was my pet peeve! Yes, I provided him with detailed instructions, but I don't even think he read them completely. Establish SOLID COMMUNICATION! ALWAYS!!

2 weeks wasted... Moving on... Need to get this MVP ASAP!

You seem to have learned some good lessons.

There was even mention of his problems are not my problems.

What I don't see is the part where you acknowledge that the freelancer and Upwork aren't responsible for your business.

Upwork isn't responsible for vetting everyone. They simply facilitate.

It wasn't just a failure to communicate on the freelancer's part.

In fact he probably doesn't have any issue with the effects his actions have on you.

He may have been deceptive or maybe not.

Either way it was your choice to believe he would do what you wanted him to without careful supervision.

Your money.
Your business.
Your destiny.
Your responsibility.

 

[theag]

So you hired a programmer (the cheapest one of course) without setting reasonable milestones, then want him to do then design too, and when you find out he sucks at design you blame.... him?!

 

[dompie85]

So you hired a programmer (the cheapest one of course) without setting reasonable milestones, then want him to do then design too, and when you find out he sucks at design you blame.... him?!

He was provided with detailed instructions which included Layout and Design. I even photoshopped some Design examples for him. Yet, he still was unable to comply with the instructions. As for cheapest, he wasn't. As I mentioned, I had learned a lesson. And got lucky.

@SinisterLex I have had an issue similar to this before on upwork, but not with App Development. Hence, why I lost faith. Not to mention, the last project I posted, I had like 20 people send me a request via Skype. Kinda annoying

 

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[Lex DeVille]

He was provided with detailed instructions which included Layout and Design. I even photoshopped some Design examples for him. Yet, he still was unable to comply with the instructions. As for cheapest, he wasn't. As I mentioned, I had learned a lesson. And got lucky.

@SinisterLex I have had an issue similar to this before on upwork, but not with App Development. Hence, why I lost faith. Not to mention, the last project I posted, I had like 20 people send me a request via Skype. Kinda annoying

Have you considered faith might be the root of the problems?

Still your responsibility.

Two paths exist.

1. Results
2. Excuses

If what you tried didn't work, try something else. Or don't.

The responsibility for your success always returns to you.

Start with the source.

 

[theag]

Well, I have only perfect experiences with freelancers from Upwork. But I pay top dollar, did Skype interviews prior to hiring and another very detailed setup call through Skype plus written instructions after hiring. I'm also always available to freelancers on my project through Slack to talk details / clarify points / answer their questions.

Maybe you should blame something/someone else than the platform or the freelancers.

P.S.: I never posted a project. Instead always took the time to search for the best fit and message them.

 

[dompie85]

All said and done, I am posting my experience, which yes, I learned from. And yes, I had other options. Just sharing this information to prevent somebody else from possibly making the same mistake I made. I tried, failed, learned, and seeking an alternative route to try again. Not looking for excuses just posting information.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Was this freelancer not in the US?

Your experience is not unusual when dealing with foreign freelancers, lot of times it's culture related.

seeking an alternative route to try again.

If you stop using those freelancing websites, what would that be?

 

[dompie85]

The freelancer is located in Sweden. Had a Skype interview with him, everything seemed well. Maybe have a more defined list of questions to ask?

My other option would be to Hire an App Development Company to get me the job done. They want around $5000 which I have a budget of $3000 to work with.

 

[MitchC]

I was going to PM you this because I can't be bothered writing it properly but what the hell, all you smart people on here who had different experience and advice for him than me can rip this apart I don't care.

Outsourcing apps sucks. I outsourced to a company which I later found out is the worst way to do it, you need to outstaff to a good dev. Mj is right about culture too. After my bad experience with elance I found some advice from someone in the same boat as me and you that said to find someone on Reddit, I signed up and spent a few hours figuring the site out and vetting people. I narrowed it down and messaged 2 people. One replied first and I hired him before the other replied. Hes a young guy in the US and talking to him on Skype put me at ease immediately after dealing with Indians taking 3 days to reply on elance in broken English. If you want his Skype message me. Otherwise, do what I did and check out Reddit /forhire, it was the best advice I ever took. The best advice I wish I got was make sure you can monetize your app so well that you can run ads profitably, but I'm sure your a lot less stubborn than me in sticking with a bad idea. If you are counting on organic search, check out https://sensortower.com/

 

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[Kelly C]

Some people are just crap. I am always looking for writers to add to the ones I already have. Some of them follow instruction and are able to produce really good work that has its own flare to it. Others will not even be able to follow the instructions despite coming across as intelligent individuals who sound like they know what you want. I always give a sample article too that they can use as a template but they still miss things out that are quite clearly there. I hire UK writers generally so its not a cultural thing. They also fall into the same price bracket too. Some people are just not as good as others.

Writing an article is quite straight forward - can only imagine what I headache it would be finding someone to do something more complicated.

 

[Harti]

Let me quote myself here, maybe it helps:

I'm outsourcing my software development for months now, and I get everything done extremely cheap, fast, and reliable. In fact, for the last pieces of software I've outsourced I saved more than 75% of the usual fees.

Here's the exact way I do it (absolutely no magic...):

1. Go on UpWork and create a very detailed job description
2. Set the job as a fixed price project, with the amount that you're comfortable with
3. Make sure the required freelancers' english level is set to "fluent", and expertise to intermediate.
4. Wait.

The truth is, the market regulates itself. People who aren't comfortable with your prices either won't apply or will apply demanding higher fees.

What's awesome about software is that it either works or it doesn't. You pay them only when you're satisfied. I prefer to not set milestones. Either they can wait until they've delivered the whole piece, or I won't work with them.

People underestimate how much programmers are out there DYING to make a steady income as a freelancer.

True, you won't attract A level coders from the US with this offer - but again, that's the beauty about software: It either works, or it doesn't.

I'd never go with that tactic when outsourcing copy for example.

I actually don't understand how one could trust someone on the internet - someone you don't know - enough to pay him per hour.

 

[HAL]

As a freelancer on upwork I have a couple of thoughts.

First if you are hiring somebody hourly, you are much better off paying a higher priced professional who can knock things out quickly and right the first time. I have almost 15 years of experience and can solve just about any problem quickly. The pick two, fast good and cheap saying very much applies here.

As far as screen grabs, I have two monitors but only grab one. I normally have my email open on the other monitor and don't really want my personal info displayed. You don't get access to all the monitors in my house just because I work for you. I could just as easily set up my tablet next to me, so I wouldn't be concerned about this.

 

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[HAL]

I actually don't understand how one could trust someone on the internet - someone you don't know - enough to pay him per hour.

It goes both ways, freelancers have to deal with non paying clients all the time. Hourly is the only way I'm guaranteed to get paid. Plus, with what I do (video editing), it is very difficult to give an accurate fixed bid, there are just too many variables.

 

[Harti]

It goes both ways, freelancers have to deal with non paying clients all the time. Hourly is the only way I'm guaranteed to get paid. Plus, with what I do (video editing), it is very difficult to give an accurate fixed bid, there are just too many variables.

For that there's Upwork holding the client's funds in escrow. As a client, you basically pay before the work is done. Once the freelancer delivered the work, you click on "release the payment" and he gets paid.

If there's a disagreement regarding the payment, you as a freelancer can file a dispute and Upwork will take care of that and get you paid. Just make sure all relevant chats happened on their plattform.

 

[Digamma]

I actually don't understand how one could trust someone on the internet - someone you don't know - enough to pay him per hour.

Why, if you meet him in person will you stay with him the whole time he works on your project to check whether he actually works? There is always trust involved, and scum exists just the same in the real world.

But I do agree with you on preferring fixed amounts. Of course, no prime coding talent will work for fixed amounts. It is however a buyer's market, so you can get your project done on a good price by reasonably skilled people.

OP, you get what you pay for. If he quoted you cheaper, he's worth less. There is no one top level who's going to work for less than he's worth. Not one in the whole Universe.

However, you got the right conclusions, I think. Behind schedule for the hours worked? Fired. Not communicating as much as you want? Fired. Bad feeling? Fired.

 

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[Harti]

Why, if you meet him in person will you stay with him the whole time he works on your project to check whether he actually works?

I personally never paid my freelancers on a hourly basis.

That might be a limiting belief of mine but I think freelancers deliver faster on fixed price projects because they have no incentive to waste time there.

Not working fast means a worse $/hour average for them.

I just don't see the benefits in paying per hour, are there any arguments for it?

 

[theag]

I pay fixed for coding, design, writing, research, data gathering etc work and hourly for customer service / assistant type stuff. Just seems natural to me like that.

 

[SWB]

I have used 100's of freelancers and here is what I have learned. Micromanagement is essential to start the process. If you don't have time to micromanage your freelancers, then I suggest you hire someone you can meet with regularly.

Here are my tips.

• a hook up every day via Skype. Make it the same time so it become habit. Some of them will take 2 minutes, some will be 30 mins, but make sure you meet with them every day.,
• a daily report on what they are working on and what they have achieved
• extremely clear expectations from you to them,
• always, have a carrot for them to chase.
• lastly, if you don't understand what their role is, don't expect them to. You need to be able to manage this people.

 

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[Digamma]

I personally never paid my freelancers on a hourly basis.

That might be a limiting belief of mine but I think freelancers deliver faster on fixed price projects because they have no incentive to waste time there.

Not working fast means a worse $/hour average for them.

I just don't see the benefits in paying per hour, are there any arguments for it?

No, I agree, from the client's perspective. Problem is, top professionals don't work for fixed priced, especially developers. Of course, up to a certain point, you don't really care about getting the top - again, it's a buyer's market at the moment.

 

[Mazino]

Did the freelancer you hired have a history of success? On Upwork I only hire freelancers with at least 1,000 paid hours logged, at least 10 jobs completed, a 98%+ job success rate, and stellar feedback.

It's worked out very well so far, and you can even find some pretty cheap freelancers who meet the above criteria depending on what you need.

 

[healthstatus]

Problem is, top professionals don't work for fixed priced, especially developers.

I believe this to be false. If you demonstrate that you have really good specifications for your project, they will.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Problem is, top professionals don't work for fixed priced, especially developers.

IMO, a competent developer, artist, programmer, should know within minutes of reading a scope document how long something should take them. Their skill allows this type assessment and hence, a fixed price should be easy to ball-park.

If a candidate wants to be paid hourly, I'd guess he has no clue how long a project will take him because he's still in his learning curve, and for me, that's a warning sign.

I'm not paying for on the job training.

I believe this to be false.

As do I.

 

[IGP]

If you're building apps, I highly recommend Keynotetopia.

If on windows:

1. Download the powerpoint slides.
2. Make the app exactly like you want it with each slide being a screenshot.
3. When everything flows like you want and all your features are in place, hire someone to code the back end.

More often than not people who have problems with outsourcers don't fully understand the entire process themselves. Following this model will make sure you BOTH know exactly how you want it to turn out.

And as a few others have said... anyone worth their salt will know exactly how much time it will take, especially if you follow this process.

 

[adiakritos]

As a freelancer on upwork I have a couple of thoughts.

First if you are hiring somebody hourly, you are much better off paying a higher priced professional who can knock things out quickly and right the first time. I have almost 15 years of experience and can solve just about any problem quickly. The pick two, fast good and cheap saying very much applies here.

As far as screen grabs, I have two monitors but only grab one. I normally have my email open on the other monitor and don't really want my personal info displayed. You don't get access to all the monitors in my house just because I work for you. I could just as easily set up my tablet next to me, so I wouldn't be concerned about this.

That's interesting because the last time I worked for hourly on there it did a screen grab of both my monitors. I'll have to look in to that.

 

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[Lex DeVille]

I have used 100's of freelancers and here is what I have learned. Micromanagement is essential to start the process. If you don't have time to micromanage your freelancers, then I suggest you hire someone you can meet with regularly.

Here are my tips.

• a hook up every day via Skype. Make it the same time so it become habit. Some of them will take 2 minutes, some will be 30 mins, but make sure you meet with them every day.,
• a daily report on what they are working on and what they have achieved
• extremely clear expectations from you to them,
• always, have a carrot for them to chase.
• lastly, if you don't understand what their role is, don't expect them to. You need to be able to manage this people.

Interesting perspective.

I find I have the best results when I give freelancers great freedom and I'm open to adapting.

I do set clear expectations and give clear instructions.

I also make it clear how the project benefits them in more ways than just the obvious, because it almost always does.

Then I make it clear I'm open for communication anytime they have questions.

From the freelance side, I'd never work for a micromanager.

I'm not an employee. You're not my employer. Just two professionals working together to get a job done.

If either side can't handle it we part ways.

 

[The-J]

Hello OP, you PMed me wondering if I do app development, and I responded with a curt 'I do not" and didn't get to refer you to anyone.

Sorry about that, but I don't deal in apps. I've never built one, or had anyone build one for me. I'm limited by my own experience here.

But freelance sites are just as you make of it. People have already said similar, but sometimes a freelancer seems like a shitty freelancer because you're being a shitty client. Now, I'm not calling you a shitty client, but I'm just gonna tell some things that shitty clients do.

A shitty client asks too much for too little. Too fast for too much.

A shitty client is inconsistent: strict on deadlines sometimes and completely loose on others. Always be strict, freelancers prefer that (at least I do lmao, makes my job easier)

A shitty client is not clear or up front for what he wants.

A shitty client doesn't even know what he wants.

A shitty client makes payment ambiguous and will go back on payment terms.

There's lots of shitty freelancers out there, too.

A shitty freelancer says one thing and delivers another.

A shitty freelancer delivers things late.

A shitty freelancer makes payment terms ambiguous and includes sneaky fees.

A shitty freelancer cannot understand a client when they are being clear and up front for the most part.

A shitty freelancer refuses to meet on Skype or contact via email.

A shitty freelancer makes his availability ambiguous.

Honestly it's not about hourly/fixed price, hours logged, or anything like that. It's about being clear.

Also, be quick to fire a freelancer.

Freelancers, be quick to fire a client (but give their money back).

 

[adiakritos]

Hello OP, you PMed me wondering if I do app development, and I responded with a curt 'I do not" and didn't get to refer you to anyone.

Sorry about that, but I don't deal in apps. I've never built one, or had anyone build one for me. I'm limited by my own experience here.

But freelance sites are just as you make of it. People have already said similar, but sometimes a freelancer seems like a shitty freelancer because you're being a shitty client. Now, I'm not calling you a shitty client, but I'm just gonna tell some things that shitty clients do.

A shitty client asks too much for too little. Too fast for too much.

A shitty client is inconsistent: strict on deadlines sometimes and completely loose on others. Always be strict, freelancers prefer that (at least I do lmao, makes my job easier)

A shitty client is not clear or up front for what he wants.

A shitty client doesn't even know what he wants.

A shitty client makes payment ambiguous and will go back on payment terms.

There's lots of shitty freelancers out there, too.

A shitty freelancer says one thing and delivers another.

A shitty freelancer delivers things late.

A shitty freelancer makes payment terms ambiguous and includes sneaky fees.

A shitty freelancer cannot understand a client when they are being clear and up front for the most part.

A shitty freelancer refuses to meet on Skype or contact via email.

A shitty freelancer makes his availability ambiguous.

Honestly it's not about hourly/fixed price, hours logged, or anything like that. It's about being clear.

Also, be quick to fire a freelancer.

Freelancers, be quick to fire a client (but give their money back).

You make some great points here. As a freelancer, the experiencing of hiring others is very eye opening in terms of empathy for my clients. And having hired others helps me recognize my own value - makes me aware of the time and headache I save them and how delighted they must feel when I do the opposite of the average. It's kind of like when you're really good and giving a massage, but you've not met anyone who can do the same for you lol

 

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[dompie85]

My experiences have been unusual.
@SinisterLex The instructions I provided are very clear with photoshopped examples (for design) and even xcode examples (to illustrate functionality). When I started noticing the screenshots coming in, It was nothing like what I had instructed.
Im not the one to micro manage. Personally, I hate it! But with this freelance not having any questions, never contacting me unless I initiate contact, and with viewing the screenshots, that this is going in the wrong direction (Design wise). I had to intervene and micro manage.

@The-J My apology, I thought you had mentioned in my last thread that you knew something about app building. Your references are great and straight forward. Too Little? Not sure. Many wanted the job. I explained my current budget for an MVP and we had an agreement. Instructions? very very clear. this does this, that does that, this reacts this way, and everything should look and function like this. Other instructions were, Read the instructions, communicate, ask questions, have a working product 70% into the project, and the remaining 30% will be for testing functionality, fixing bugs, and any other errors they may be. Payments and Hours? they were negotiated and clear, had no problems there. He actually had problems receiving the funds by upwork, which resulted in a refund. lol!

Im gonna give this another go. as @theag mentioned, must meet this criteria and must be interviewed. And with those remaining, I will choose 1, send them a trail, which is associated with the actual project, and if everything checks out great, continue to the full project. Fixed price, negotiated.