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Why Bitcoin will do to banking what the cell phone did to communication

Jake

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Hesitant to share this as most people here think it's a ponzi but when something is too important not to share you just have to do it anyways.

So.. tell me how big of a ponzi scheme bitcoin is or ask me any questions on how a decentralized ledger which can be innovated at the edge(like anyone can build on-top of the internet) can change not only finance but asset ownership in general.

Article below..

Let me tell you a little story about the telephone. Once upon a time – as late as 2008, in fact - the world had almost 1.3 billion landlines...

People love to communicate, if they can. Telecoms companies love to profit from people communicating, if they can. They’ll lay cables anywhere in the world, if they think they can make money out of it.

So, with some seven billion people on the planet, the vast majority of whom, one assumes, are not hermits and like communicating, you might expect that 1.3 billion figure to have been higher. Along comes the mobile phone and the point is proved. There are now 6.3 billion users in a global population of 6.9 billion people. More people have a mobile phone than have a toilet, a recent UN study showed.

Of course, the superior technology of the cell phone is such that broader coverage is considerably cheaper than it is with the landline. But there is something else, something that enabled the cell phone to succeed where the landline failed.

telephone_box_getty_800.jpg

Image from gettyimages
It is what economists call ‘financial inclusion’.

Quite simply, many people couldn’t get access to the basic financial services needed to get a landline. Landlines were, except for pay-phones, credit-based. You needed a bank account. Many people might have liked a landline, but couldn’t. The financial system actually prevented them. The telecoms companies concluded that the demand was not there, they did not put in the infrastructure and people were held back by their inability to communicate.

But with the cell phone, you don’t need a bank account. You can buy the credit you need with cash. There are not the same barriers to entry. Anyone can get one – and they have.

How Bitcoin could enable 3.5 billion financially excluded people to participate in world trade

It is estimated that half of all adults worldwide do not have access to basic financial services. According to the World Bank, the reasons for this are "poverty, the cost, the travel distance and the necessary paperwork to open an account."

Only two billion people are ‘banked’ and participate in ecommerce. Yet about 5.5 billion have at least some access to the internet. That’s a potential 3.5 billion people who could participate in ecommerce but don’t, because they don’t have access to the necessary financial infrastructure.

Thanks to Bitcoin and other forms of mobile money, this lack of basic financial services is no longer a barrier to entry. You don’t need a bank account or any of that stuff. That’s history. All you need to participate in ecommerce is some internet access. Most of the world’s population will have that long before they have proper sanitation, education or healthcare.

It is estimated that half of all adults worldwide do not have access to basic financial services.

And the developed world will have a potential 3.5 billion new people to outsource jobs to, to sell products to and to receive products from. That is a lot of new trade. In fact, the money that the unbanked 3.5 billion make from ecommerce might enable them to buy the sanitation, education and healthcare they have been so deprived of and escape the poverty that has so blighted them.

It’s rather like the Industrial Revolution enabling workers to escape rural poverty, and, within a generation, become part of a new, emerging educated middle class. We can already see this process happening in Africa.

How mobile money has turned Kenya into Africa’s tech hub

It began in Kenya in the early 2000s with the M-Pesa. M stands for mobile. Pesa is Swahili for money – so you have ‘mobile money’. People started transferring their mobile phone minutes – their airtime credits – to friends or family. This airtime, of course, has a definite value. Based on a ‘real thing’ it would become a modern day commodity currency. You can now send airtime, M-Pesas, by SMS.

Something like two-thirds of Kenyans now use the M-Pesa, as much as 43% of national GDP flows through it and 75% of the country’s financial transactions are handled by the system.

kenya_phone_getty_1238.jpg

Image from gettyimages

Yet only 40% of Kenyans have a bank account. With the M-Pesa, the ‘unbanked’ now have access to basic financial services. People can deposit and withdraw money, transfer money (even to non-users), pay bills, buy airtime and, in some cases, actually transfer money to a bank account. They can even obtain credit.

The result is that ‘financial inclusion is reported to be at 80% in Kenya’, as Sitoyo Lopokoiyit of Safaricom says. "When you remove mobile money, it drops to 23%. So you can see what mobile money does for financial inclusion in Kenya."

The Kenyan economy is booming relative to its neighbours. It grew by 5.7% last year to become the fourth biggest in sub-Saharan Africa. Economists now consider it a ‘middle-income country’, rather than a low-income one. Nairobi is Africa’s tech hub, drawing comparisons with Bangalore and Silicon Valley.

The M-Pesa is just the beginning. With a truly international currency like Bitcoin, the possibilities are enormous.

Bitcoin and other forms of mobile money are to banking what the cell phone was to the landline.

Edit: forgot the link http://www.virgin.com/entrepreneur/...king-what-the-cell-phone-did-to-communication
 
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JAJT

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I wish I had read this 2 years ago.

Isn't there a phrase that goes something like "by the time an investment's potential is public knowledge, you've already missed the opportunity"?

Put another way, you won't hear about the next Microsoft by waiting on the sidelines for the news outlets to report on it.
 

jon.a

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Isn't there a phrase that goes something like "by the time an investment's potential is public knowledge, you've already missed the opportunity"?

Put another way, you won't hear about the next Microsoft by waiting on the sidelines for the news outlets to report on it.
I'm slow.
 
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biggeemac

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Isn't there a phrase that goes something like "by the time an investment's potential is public knowledge, you've already missed the opportunity"?

Put another way, you won't hear about the next Microsoft by waiting on the sidelines for the news outlets to report on it.

Hmmm, I remember thinking this same thing about Apple and Amazon stock starting around 2001. Guess how many percents they have went up since then?
 

Jake

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Isn't there a phrase that goes something like "by the time an investment's potential is public knowledge, you've already missed the opportunity"?
Yes. But I DO NOT want anyone to take my opinions on investment advice..but..bitcoin is a $4.6 billion $ technology at this point. It's tiny, comparatively. If you understand how "disruptive"(not to use a completely overused word) it is..then it's either early stage or way overvalued as it will go to 0 and be supplanted by something else. The invention of the "blockchain" is here to stay. Bitcoin is the most secure blockchain so it is probably here to stay.

Anyways. The motivation behind posting this article is to point out that the current financial system blocks most of the world. The internet, like bitcoin, cannot block people from using or innovating upon it. It gives access, financially, to anyone who wants to join the network. Therefore, I believe, the world will join in and start "communicating"(sending value) upon it. It's tough to ignore.
 

Kingmaker

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Discovered bitcoin back in '12 when it was just a couple bucks to purchase them. Mined them for a while. Read MJ's book around the same time and the concept of Value just blew my mind, so I applied it to everything around me including bitcoin. Couldn't find any value in it. It's only valuable to libertarians who hate government and criminals whose lives it makes easier for transferring currency across the borders.

Even the article in OP seems to be pulling bitcoin 'by the ears'. It's author is just proposing a theory, as in he didn't go himself and try to get the Kenyan farmers into e-commerce with bitcoin. In fact no one has, because it's not feasible. Or at least, not in the Western world.

In reality most people who made money on bitcoin so far are the speculators and the creators of dollar-to-bitcoin exchanges. Selling shovels to gold miners, except there's no gold. If you look at the twitter of the author of the article, he has a book out on bitcoin... Of course he'd want you to believe that it has a future, as the bitcoin "guru".

But I don't want to start a flame war. Just my 2cents.
 
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Jake

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It's only valuable to libertarians who hate government and criminals whose lives it makes easier for transferring currency across the borders.
Would it not make everyone's lives easier if they could transfer money faster, cheaper, and more securely?

I know I get annoyed when I transfer money from the U.S to my bank account. $35 fee, horrible exchange rate, long processing times(and only during banking hours)..all to change entries on an inefficient ledger system. I'm not a criminal, I just prefer not to get robbed when sending money from point a to point b.

Even the article in OP seems to be pulling bitcoin 'by the ears'. It's author is just proposing a theory, as in he didn't go himself and try to get the Kenyan farmers into e-commerce with bitcoin. In fact no one has, because it's not feasible. Or at least, not in the Western world.

There's a few companies targeting the market. Bitpesa, Kipochi, various others who offer bitcoin transaction via sms on dumb phones.
 
D

DeletedUser394

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The biggest obstacle to the wider adoption of bitcoin is a lot of people frankly don't understand what it is. Nor do they care honestly.

I don't understand mining and blockchains, and the 80 million different crypto currencies all replicating using different codes, and what makes one better than another, etc.

As for banks; I tolerate the fees and get absolutely raped in the exchanges, but it's so infrequent that I don't care. I totally understand why as an expat that could be quite frustrating for you, but most people tend to stay within their own country, and only exchange a bit of money when traveling or with the rare foreign online purchase. The expat market, while large, is still fairly niche.
 

Jake

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The biggest obstacle to the wider adoption of bitcoin is a lot of people frankly don't understand what it is. Nor do they care honestly.

In the future they won't need to. A very small percentage of the population understands TCP/IP or SMTP but they use them everyday communicate. Funds will flow over the bitcoin network and be settled on the other side. Other assets will probably be transferred over the network as well. Equity, titles, keys

I don't understand mining and blockchains, and the 80 million different crypto currencies all replicating using different codes, and what makes one better than another, etc.
Most people don't understand banking or how the monetary system works. Here's a pretty good primer article on bitcoin http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/why-bitcoin-matters/?_r=0 if you'd like technical information I can point you to it.

As for banks; I tolerate the fees and get absolutely raped in the exchanges, but it's so infrequent that I don't care. I totally understand why as an expat that could be quite frustrating for you, but most people tend to stay within their own country, and only exchange a bit of money when traveling or with the rare foreign online purchase. The expat market, while large, is still fairly niche.
If we include remittance sent to developing countries into the expat niche then it's absolutely massive. Cutting down the fees when the poor send money home to their families will not only provide them with a better life but will also have ripple effects throughout their economy.

Another place where people get nailed for fees daily is via credit card processing. It may be hidden on the consumer side but it's money that comes out of businesses and consumers pockets for the privilege of sending slow and un-secure transactions over a network that was never designed for the internet.
 
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tafy

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I agree that bitcoin is going to revolutionise the banking industry

I dont recommend investing in it perse but I would keep an eye out on how your business can utilise bitcoin to your advantage
 

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Actually, I think the more innovative part of crypto is not the currency, its the blockchain itself and the amount of transparency/secrecy that people can have.....whichever they choose.

Imagine if your local politician that was running for office wanted to reveal to everyone who was sponsoring his campaign, and used bitcoin as the currency and the blockchain as the public ledger? No secrets......just someone running an honest campaign and being true to their words. Every penny in and out of the bank accounts are accounted for. This is something that society has NEVER experienced in history.

Of course, this would just be one example. The blockchain is the ticket !
 

Jake

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Actually, I think the more innovative part of crypto is not the currency, its the blockchain itself and the amount of transparency/secrecy that people can have.....whichever they choose.

Imagine if your local politician that was running for office wanted to reveal to everyone who was sponsoring his campaign, and used bitcoin as the currency and the blockchain as the public ledger? No secrets......just someone running an honest campaign and being true to their words. Every penny in and out of the bank accounts are accounted for. This is something that society has NEVER experienced in history.

Of course, this would just be one example. The blockchain is the ticket !
Charities will be all but forced to use it in the future. Only makes sense. Why give to a charity if you can't see how they put the money to use? Open 24/7 audits with undeniable proof.

"I think the more innovative part of crypto is not the currency, its the blockchain" This is the current statement circulating the news. It's fine, it gets people to look into what it actually is and shows it's not an e-gold or some other nonsense where you have to trust individuals. But the statement is flawed. The blockchain cannot exist without the currency. They live and die together. The blockchain allows digital scarcity. The currency ensures it's survival and allows it to function.
 
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biggeemac

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Well, i didnt say one could exist without the other. i was just stating that the blockchain is the gamechanger with endless applications.
 

Jake

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Well, i didnt say one could exist without the other. i was just stating that the blockchain is the gamechanger with endless applications.
I hear you. Don't want to necessarily call you out on the statement but it is the current story the media is telling everyone. "Bitcoin the currency may not be useful but the blockchain is amazing...." It's good marketing but they seem to miss the point. The currency in and of itself is a huge huge deal. Being able to utilize the blockchain for a variety of other things is great..but the world needs a fair, honest, un-corruptable currency that settles in an efficient manner. Pull requests are a silly way to make payments.
 

biggeemac

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yeah, watching the different coins that everyone is pulling out of their asses is a little like watching the battle between VHS and BetaMax, or Blu-ray vs HD-DVD.....only x100000. Pretty ridiculous. I will be glad when there is a clear winner.
 
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Deleted2BB3x9

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I agree that bitcoin is going to revolutionise the banking industry

I dont recommend investing in it perse but I would keep an eye out on how your business can utilise bitcoin to your advantage
This.

More businesses need to start accepting Bitcoin in order for it to become mainstream. Right now, I believe it's still in the early phase, a lot of people don't know what it is or care about it. But if Businesses start accepting it, others will follow.

For people to care, the Bitcoin economy will have to grow, they're will have to be a lot more Bitcoin transactions. And because of Bitcoin's scarcity, it will become more valuable the bigger it becomes.

The question is will it make it that far?
 
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benhebert

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Bitcoin could be everything or bitcoin and cryptocurrencies could end up being nothing.

You can play the arbitrage game if you want (which is really fun!!!) or you can buy some coins and then leave them in a wallet with cold storage.

There are some people who think one bitcoin could be worth a million dollars in 50 years from now.
 

Jake

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they're will have to be a lot more Bitcoin transactions. And because of Bitcoin's scarcity, it will become more valuable the bigger it becomes.

Transactions steadily rising..

FLoazsi.png


This doesn't account for the off-chain transactions that are becoming more common as well.
 
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GlobalWealth

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It's only valuable to libertarians who hate government and criminals whose lives it makes easier for transferring currency across the borders.


Right now you are probably right. Btc is primarily adopted by libertarians and criminals, but every movement since the beginning of time started with a lead group.

The reality is that it is and can be valuable for virtually everyone.

Yesterday I received a wire to my non-US bank account from a Panamanian bank for $2k. It took 7 days and cost the sender $55 and me $10 to receive.

If he would have paid in the btc equivalent it would have taken a few minutes and cost a few pennies. And I could have converted to fiat immediately with virtually no transaction cost.

We have clients that pay us in btc and it is fantastic. No waiting on payments to clear for providing service. No chasing wire payments. No huge fees.

It is not just for the libertarians and criminals, but that is how it has started. It has to start somewhere.

The silkroad example of btc being used for criminals is pretty funny as well. yes, btc was used for selling drugs. But the usd is by far the largest currency for drug trade. (of course I could argue it is the true ponzi scheme).
 

Bigguns50

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I agree that bitcoin is going to revolutionise the banking industry
I'm not so educated on our own banking system as far as the big picture is concerned, but how would banks make money with bitcoin ? We know how they make money now. Doesn't our Government make a shit load of $ with our currency ? What about currency trading ?

I guess I'm wondering if there's too much as stake for the billion dollar companies and our Government to let this thing get bigger ?
 

DennisD

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Whenever I talk about bitcoin people look at me like I'm some extremist.

There's a LOT of unnecessary infrastructure, regulations, and middle men when it comes to currency. Why the heck do
I need a bank? Why are they even there? Why do they exist? Once upon a time they were NECESSARY, but they're just a releic of the past right now. The only reason they still exist is more or less out of habit. We're used to them existing.

There's a lot of people profiting by being the "guardians" of our money and skimming off the top while doing so. In reality, the services a bank offers us are obsolete and unnecessary. We're at a point where that infrastructure can be automated by our technology.

When I start selling products again, I WILL be accepting bitcoin as currency because it's something I believe needs to happen.
 
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Deleted2BB3x9

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For anyone interested in learning more about Bitcoin, I would suggest you watch "The rise and rise of Bitcoin". It's a really good self made documentary, it talks a lot about Bitcoin businesses too.
 

Testament

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Here's an interesting look at how banks are viewing bitcoin. Banks are starting to raise their collective eyebrows and seem to be getting quite threatened by it.


Bitcoin directly competes with the financial industry, which generates 3.1 trillion dollars a year. There will be efforts made on the part of the financial sector to keep the technology at bay. Getting regulated to death is a very likely scenario.
 

tafy

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I'm not so educated on our own banking system as far as the big picture is concerned, but how would banks make money with bitcoin ? We know how they make money now. Doesn't our Government make a shit load of $ with our currency ? What about currency trading ?

I guess I'm wondering if there's too much as stake for the billion dollar companies and our Government to let this thing get bigger ?

Banks won't make money and will go out of business one day, they will fight bitcoin to the death, politicians will fight as most of their money is from financial industry. Banks are are only a quite recent invention if you think about it anyway. This is all good stuff.
 
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Jake

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Here's an interesting look at how banks are viewing bitcoin. Banks are starting to raise their collective eyebrows and seem to be getting quite threatened by it.

"Bitcoin developers “are going to try and eat our lunch and that’s fine. That’s called competition, and we’ll be competing.” - Jamie Dimon, chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase

“You have to be respectful in the face of new technologies like Bitcoin, but you don’t capitulate,” he said. “You adjust and take advantage. Consumers feel better putting their money with a brand they recognize. We have capabilities and resources that are very powerful.” -James Gorman, CEO of Morgan Stanley,
 

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GlobalWealth

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I'm not so educated on our own banking system as far as the big picture is concerned, but how would banks make money with bitcoin ? We know how they make money now. Doesn't our Government make a shit load of $ with our currency ? What about currency trading ?

I guess I'm wondering if there's too much as stake for the billion dollar companies and our Government to let this thing get bigger ?


the way banks make money is more nefarious than you can likely imagine. And none of us probably fully understand the reality of it.

In the US, banks borrow money from the Federal Reserve (right now the interest rate is nearly zero percent). In addition to that you and I deposit our money with the banks.

The banks then turn around and lend out 10x (or more) the amount of money they have from deposits or the Fed. They pay you .2% and then charge you 3, 4, 5+ % to borrow it. But keep in mind, if you deposit $10,000, they loan out $100,000. That's a damn huge spread.

that's just one way the banks make money. Ironically they also frequently buy US treasuries with Fed money. It is equivalent to me loaning you money at 0% and then you loaning it to another person for 2%. Free profits.

Btc is completely different. It is a way to get OUT of the banking system. Aside from btc exchange, banks don't make money with btc. That's the whole idea.

Starve the beast. Take control back from the central banking system and put it in the hands of the people thru a distributed network (blockchain).

You are correct that there is a lot at stake. Btc and other cryptocurrencies have the potential to legitimately challenge the central banking system and thus the govt.

The powers that be clearly don't want that and are fighting now to minimize the impact.

The problem for them is, you cannot unring this bell.
 
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Testament

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the way banks make money is more nefarious than you can likely imagine. And none of us probably fully understand the reality of it.

In the US, banks borrow money from the Federal Reserve (right now the interest rate is nearly zero percent). In addition to that you and I deposit our money with the banks.

The banks then turn around and lend out 10x (or more) the amount of money they have from deposits or the Fed. They pay you .2% and then charge you 3, 4, 5+ % to borrow it. But keep in mind, if you deposit $10,000, they loan out $100,000. That's a damn huge spread.

that's just one way the banks make money. Ironically they also frequently buy US treasuries with Fed money. It is equivalent to me loaning you money at 0% and then you loaning it to another person for 2%. Free profits.

Btc is completely different. It is a way to get OUT of the banking system. Aside from btc exchange, banks don't make money with btc. That's the whole idea.

Starve the beast. Take control back from the central banking system and put it in the hands of the people thru a distributed network (blockchain).

You are correct that there is a lot at stake. Btc and other cryptocurrencies have the potential to legitimately challenge the central banking system and thus the govt.

The powers that be clearly don't want that and are fighting now to minimize the impact.

The problem for them is, you cannot unring this bell.

Could you imagine if we actually transitioned off of fiat currency? I think bitcoin - or at least cryptocurrency, could be one of the greatest inventions in all of human history.

I mean, how could governments afford to fund war without being able to print out endless fiat monopoly money? In the video I posted, the speaker mentions that the war in Iraq would've cost more gold than has ever been mined in human history. They'd never be able to fund something like that with a crypto currency.
 

tafy

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In the video I posted, the speaker mentions that the war in Iraq would've cost more gold than has ever been mined in human history.

Thats true on the current value, but if currency wasnt fiat the gold price today would be 1000 times higher, wars will still happen but they would need someone to loan them the money instead of just printing it.

If bitcoin was in use as sole currency it would mean that its value only goes up which is totally opposite of the fiat currencys. So today 1k bitcoin buys you a house and in 10 years time it still buys you a house. While dollars halves its value in 10 years because of inflation and money printing.
 

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