Andy Black
Help people. Get paid. Help more people.
Staff member
FASTLANE INSIDER
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
LEGACY MEMBER
I had a chat with Tony who describes how:
I spent over 2 hours personally chopping this call down to only 25 minutes so it's no fluff and actionable. Do yourself a favour and give it a listen.
Well done @arobinson04
> Click here to access the recording <
What were your takeaways?
What will you do differently going forward?
EDIT: Wow... I didn't realise this recording was so old. Almost exactly 4 years later I've created a video out of it and published it to YouTube. It's tighter too (down to 17 minutes from 25 minutes).
View: https://youtu.be/8YBY0r2Hb1g
(For other recordings click HERE.)
TRANSCRIPT:
TONY: I think you messaged me on thefastlaneforum cos I followed you, and you said "Hey, thanks for following me."
And then I think I mentioned to you what I was working on, which was this new kind of website in the job hunting niche.
And your first question back was "Who have you helped?" And I was just dumbfound, I was like "Well, well, nobody yet."
And just that one question shifted my whole perspective on how I should go about doing this.
Cos I had a blog that I ran a few years ago in the personal development niche and I was focused on the wrong thing then which is why I don't think I got the results I was looking for.
That small change in perspective opened up a new approach of how to get things done.
ANDY: You read something of mine, and you liked it enough to follow me. So it's enough for me to go "This guy's raised his hand. Something I've done has interested him." So I just thanked you, and then I just asked a simple question of "How are you doing?"
And then I ask another little question. "Who do you help?" or "Who have you helped?" or "How are you gonna make a sale?" cos often people are off building stuff. I find it interesting watching people, go "Hmm, I haven't helped anyone. It'll be another 6 months before I can help them."
TONY: And from there, the next thing I started asking myself was like, man, how can I just get out in front of people and start trying to answer questions.
My first thought was let me find a forum where there's a lot of people that are talking about this topic that I'm trying to help people in. But I struggled to find an active forum about job hunting.
You're only in that phase for a short period of time. Most people if they've got a job they're happy with, they're not looking, they're not really worried about how to find a job.
So I struggled to find a community. And then I think I Googled a question related to LinkedIn and job hunting and it took me to Quora. And I was like, man, there's a ton of people in here just asking questions that I know I can give really good answers to. So I just started doing that. I was just spending a few hours every night when I got home from work, just answering different people's questions.
And within the first month I went from no answers on Quora ever to being the most viewed writer on anything related to LinkedIn profiles.
So that's how I started helping people. Just answering a ton of questions on Quora.
But the response to that was crazy. I didn't even really think that I would get people to join my email list. I just had a little tagline at the end of all my answers.
"Hey, if you wanna learn more, go here."
My list grew by about 300 people in that 1 month all through Quora and the lists are growing from there.
And then I layered this survey on top of my squeeze page where before you could opt in you had to answer4 or 5 questions about who you are, what you're struggling with, things like that.
I've almost 300 really detailed answers of what people are struggling with. And everyone's pretty much saying the same thing. "I'm applying for jobs or I'm reaching out to recruiters. And I don't know why I'm not getting a response." So I added something at the end of my autoresponder series when you first signed upoffering a free 30 minute coaching session.
"Hey, here's free 30 minutes. I'll walk through what you're struggling with and I'll just give you some advice."
So the very first one that I did, there was this lady from Texas and we're talking, I'm giving her all this advice. And then at the end, I said "Hey if you're interested I've got a coaching package." I was like "I'll sell it to you for $400." And she was like "Done."
ANDY: Wow.
TONY: Yeah, I was like "Really, that's it?" So that's how it happened. I got my first client, I've got a few more of these free chat sessions coming up, so hoping I can land some more.
And just yesterday I finished a little 15 page action guide that I'm gonna sell as a trip wire for everyone who signed up for the email list. Answering all those questions on the front end was huge.
Helping all those people on Quora. They were so willing to share what they were struggling with through that surveyand then taking that data with talking to people and now I've got a really good idea of what this market is struggling with and where I can help them.
ANDY: I love it, I love it. In one month, just one month?
TONY: One month flat. And it was crazy because when I was running my last website in the personal development space I spent so much time trying to get my websites to look great and doing all these plugins and I just focused a lot of time on the website.
And this time around I think I've got 3 blog posts up there and that's it.
And I wrote those in that first week haven't really touched it since but my email list is growing faster than it was before. And it's because my focus wasn't on "How can I make my website look great?" or "How can I get this plugin to work?" it was like "Man, how can I just go out connect with someone, help them and give them something of value?" And it's made all the difference.
ANDY: How many times have you posted do you think in Quora?
TONY: I think I've got 29 answers on there.
ANDY: Only 29 and you've got this amount of volume.
TONY: Yeah and the other people that are in that LinkedIncommunity that are answering questions, they've got like hundreds, and one guy even has well over a thousand answers so it's definitely more about the quality of the answer than the quantity.
ANDY: I presume you didn't go in saying "Hi, I'm Tony, I'm a LinkedIn expert." You just started answering questions?
TONY: Yeah I was just in there was like "Hey, I can answer that" or "Hey, I can answer this one too". And then once I got a few under my belt I was like "I should probably put like a tagline in here so people can at least find my email list."
ANDY: So you did that afterwards. I approve of that as well. It's like just go out and do it and then you go "Oh damn, I wonder if I've lost a few people? I wonder if a few people might have been looking for a bit more information? I'd better are now gonna create it."
Whereas other people do it the other way round. "In case people want to find more information, I'll go and create a really good looking website and a lead magnet."
Then they go and do something and it's all tumbleweeds and nobody would've found it anyway.
So you might as well just go out, help people, become known as the LinkedIn guy because you HELP people with LinkedIn not because you say "I am the LinkedIn guy". It's that whole "Show don't tell" which is great.
And I've just remembered when we were messaging in the forum before you went off looking for communities to help you were coming up with your tagline, llike who you help and what you help them with. And I remember it was quite big and we condensed it quite a bit.
TONY: Yeah, so when I first started off, and this is something I struggled with before, iit's just like casting the net too wide. I think initially I was talking about you know, I just, "I, I help everybody with LinkedIn. Um, and then, you know, you and I going back and forth as like "Who specifically can you help?"
And I was like "I know what industry I'm in so I can help people in my industry." And we were able to keep paring that list down. But I guess what I've discovered through all this is that there's two ways to define who you are and who you help.
You can help a specific, segment of people right? "I help people who are 5' 11 that wanna play basketball but can't dunk or whatever." Or you can help, people with a specific problem, right? "It doesn't matter who you are, but if you want to get really, really, really good at using your LinkedIn profile so that when you submit an application people respond I'm the guy to help you."
And as I've, talked to all these people I realized, okay that's what people are asking for and I know that's what I'm good at so let me focus on this one very specific problem.
ANDY: That's really interesting because we boiled it down previously to who you help, what you help with, how you do it. It was slightly demographic based. It was like people in a particular type of job. We help those people to get jobs through LinkedIn
TONY: Yeah, using a good LinkedIn profile
ANDY: Whereas your other way of doing it is more down to the intent of the person.
TONY: Yeah, they want to create a good LinkedIn profile.
ANDY: I like both ways, but I like that way particularly because I can see my search engine brain is instantly "I don't care what size you are or height you are whether you like basketball or not. If you searched for this then you're interested in that thing I can do."
The demographics don't matter it's just your intent.
TONY: Yeah, and again it all came down to me not thinking "This is what people want to hear." But reading survey after survey and everyone saying the exact same thing "I don't know why I'm not getting responses to my application.
I don't know why people are looking at my profile, but not reaching out to me." That just opened my eyes up to say "Hey, here's what I'm meant to go after."
ANDY: It's really interesting you put the survey on before people submit their email. Did you notice that affected the amount of people entered their email or not?
TONY: No, and it's crazy, if anything, more people have been signing up since I added the survey on. And I've got two different squeeze pages, one has the survey on there, one doesn't. And the one that has the survey is converting higher than the one that doesn't.
I don't know if it's this market that I'm looking at specifically where people are just really engaged and want to be able to give me all the information so I can help them. But, I guess building that relationship up upfront has been pretty helpful.
ANDY: Yeah, it's kind of what they call the micro commitments isn't it?
TONY: Right.
ANDY: They filled in that then it's like "Damnit, I'm gonna fill all the thing in."
And are you studying the “Ask” book by Ryan Levesque?
TONY: Yes yeah, so I just finished that and that's where I got the whole survey idea from and that whole concept just really clicked with me.
Between what you told me about helping people, and then what you learn from the Ask book about getting to know your audience and your customers. Those two concepts that's what's really enabled me to get off to this good start so far.
ANDY: That's really interesting cos he studied Dr Glenn Livingston's stuff and I think he was his top student, and he's took that survey method, and he's grown a $10m a year company with 50 people in it. He's got the book and software and all that kind of stuff.
I remember studying it as well. I've got a little company just me and a couple of freelancers. But the main thing I took out of this course is if you put up a survey you'll get a lot of people filling in the open-ended things like "What are you looking for today?", "What are you struggling with?"
And a lot of people will reply with "Oh, I just need to pass an exam."
And then somebody will write a load, and that "hyper-responsive" person is writing a load of information in a form to a complete stranger because they are super frustrated.
The reason they're super frustrated is they've been around looking for a solution for a long while and looked at everything on the market and they can't find it and it's really bugging them.
Glenn's thing was like "50 people said this, that's important. You want that on your sales page.But the things you're gonna learn from the few people out of the 100 who write a tonne is potentially more useful than 50 people all saying the same thing. Because those people are possibly more educated about the market."
TONY: And that concept, about going after who's really hungry. That client who paid me the money for the coaching,she reached out to me not once but twice. Asking me like "Hey, I'm really interested in working with you. Can you please get back to me?"
And then, just to your point about the hyper-responsiveness, when I got on the phone with her and I was of hearing her story, I'm taking notes and now I'm using the exact phrases that she was saying about how she was struggling, in my copy, as I'm now getting ready to launch this ebook.
One of the things she told me was that she had been looking for so long that she had lost confidence in herself as a candidate. And I can't imagine how many other people are feeling that same way. So if I'm this person and I feel like I've lost confidence in myself, and then I open up my email inbox and I see a headline that says "Has your job search made you lose your confidence?" or something along that line I'm gonna open that up and I'm gonna be engaged.
So it's been a really cool experience.
ANDY: Yeah, using the language they give you and then give it back.
TONY: It was the easiest email subject line I ever had to write, just copy and paste.
ANDY: You're getting all these responses. I presume people are still trickling in.
TONY: Absolutely.
ANDY: Some of those are going to the free phone call, which by the way is a hyper-responsive thing.
When I send someone a thank you in the forum for following me I get a great little interaction and then sometimes I end up with a big long conversation.
Like with yourself, it was quite a lot of backwards and forwards and we honed in on something. I wasn't surprised that you popped up later on having done something because you wouldn't have continued that conversation for so long if you weren't hyper-responsive yeah?
TONY: Absolutely.
ANDY: It's like when I send visitors to a website, if they were searching for something I don't need to make the website look really pretty. In a way if it looks a bit ugly and I'm not selling too hard then the people who ring my clients they're more likely to convert because they don't care what the website looks like they're just that annoyed. So you're getting people coming through. Some of them are frustrated enough to wanna speak to a complete stranger for 30 minutes.
Even though you're giving it away for free, you can't give it away to everybody because it's their time that they're giving to you. And then also some people are shy and whatnot. That's one of the best things I've been doing is if people are stuck with something
I'll go "Oh look, why don't we just jump on a call and have a chat?" And I might spend 30 minutes chatting about something, but then I learn so much. I can help them, they can go off. Most of 'em don't turn into a client and that's not the intention, but the amount of stuff I learn like "Wow, so many people are saying they've lost confidence in the such and such."
How many of these free phone calls have you had?
TONY: Just five, so I had my first one about nine days ago,and then I've had four since then. I've had one convert out of those five.
ANDY: And if you start recording some of those, obviously let them know beforehand like "Are you happy I record this? I can give it to you and maybe use it for training later."
Then you might take out two minute segments or five minute segments. It can be a YouTube video. It could be a Facebook video. It would work pretty good on Facebook I think. How many people might not be looking for a job at that moment in time but they're in the market?
"Lost confidence in da da da da? This is a quick solution." could work really well.
Are you planning to continue doing the 30 minute conversations with people?
TONY: I think so just cos there's so much value in it. I mean it's beneficial to me because I'm getting to know the customer even more, right? You get a lot of insights from a survey, but being able to talk on the phone to someone and ask them that follow up question in the moment. It's invaluable just learning about my audience.
And then two, I am helping people, even in those 30 minutes I'm able to in the same way that you just asked me one question and it completely shifted my whole paradigm on how to get this thing started, I've heard that same thing in people that I've talked to. "You're doing it this way, but if you just change this one small thing I guarantee the results will get better." Definitely something I'll keep up with.
ANDY: And if you can see it in video, you get to see that aha moment. I've seen people sit back and go "Ohhhh."
You'd hear it in the phone as well if it was just audio, but when they sit back and go "Ohh" it's like they're doing a face palm.
I'm looking for those little twists, little twists that'll help people just get unstuck.
You've answered 29 things. You might find your repeating yourself and you might go "I've seen this before, where is it?"
You go and copy/paste and then you go "I must stop copy/pasting."
And then you go and write a nice article on it, and that article is battle tested. It got created because you did it once to answer somebody, then again, and then you're like, I'm done creating this loads of times, I'm gonna create an article.
That article is gonna help loads of people cos it's already helped a few people. Versus if you sit and write a blog post with a blank screen and go "What should I write about?"
TONY: Exactly.
ANDY: You've got no idea whether it can help anybody and then nobody's gonna find it, whereas this way... it's just a better way to do it.
And then once I got speaking to people I knew what they were stuck on, but I then could figure out WHY they were stuck on it. They all kept saying the same thing, the patterns were always the same.
And then once I figured that out, then I ended up creating a course, and then who did I sell that course to? But all the people who already know me as the AdWords guy. I *released* it, I didn't *launch* it with a big fanfare and a fancy countdown timer like it's gonna go up in price and all that stuff. Just released it slowly into the forum, had sales over 18 months and there we go.
And now I know that course will sell to people who already know, like, and trust me. The sales page worked for those people. All I need to do is get people who don't know me to know, like, and trust me, and then I can present it.
TONY: That's what I'm focusing on a lot right now too. So taking all those questions that I'm answering on Quora... and doing a lot of what you just said too but, instead of putting them on my blog, I'm adding them to my email responder. Once you get on my list, you'll go through just like a short indoctrination series where I tell you a little bit about who I am and my story.
And then I'll start sending you strictly content pieces and I'm just repurposing all these different answers that I'm giving on Quora and then just throwing those into the email responder. Cos maybe one person found me on answer number one but they haven't seen answers 22 through 28 right. That's my goal in kind of, building that whole know, like, and trust piece.
Now when I do start offering more of these products and services they know who I am and what I'm offering.
ANDY: You've got one sale now…
TONY: It happened I don't wanna say effortlessly because there's definitely a lot of work that went into making that happen, but when I think about how I started before I invested all this time front "Okay let me build all these lead magnets." "Let me build all these sales pages." "Let me write this copy." "Let me create these email autoresponders."
I did it the wrong way. Let me talk to people first, let me understand what they're struggling with first. Let me help somebody. And then from there, once I have a really good understanding of what the market's struggling with then I can go back and be really focused with what I'm making because I know it's gonna convert because this is what they told me they want.
ANDY: And have you had your coaching call yet? The paid one?
TONY: Yeah, we actually just had it yesterday morning. That was the first paid one that we had and it went great. It went so well. She told me that she took so much away from that first session. So there's a buzz there of just helping.
ANDY: I'm doing the same thing, I'm helping people put a roof over their heads. That's what you're doing. You're helping them. You're helping their immediate family. You're helping their extended family cos their mom and dad are worried about them if they haven't got a job and all this kind of stuff.
What would you recommend to somebody now if they were like "I've got this idea I'm gonna go build a website an autoresponder series and blah, blah, blah?"
TONY: The first thing I would say is just find someone that you feel you can help. If they're asking a question on a forum, or even someone from your personal life like if someone's personally struggling with what it is you feel you can bring value with just go out there and help someone.
See if what you have to offer is actually solving a problem for them. And if it is, get to know that problem on a very intimate level right? What is it exactly that they're struggling with? What are the thoughts that are running through their minds? What are the mental hurdles they feel they have to jump through to get to that solution.
And once you've done that then all the other work is laid out already.
You've already got the framework that you need to go follow.
Find someone to help. Help 'em. Pay attention, ask good questions and everything else takes care of itself. But it's just so strange cos you hear a lot of the internet gurus who talk about super complex marketing strategies and techniques. "You need this one click upsell" and "You need this multilayered funnel" and "You need to remarket people who opt in for your lead magnet but don't buy your trip wire" and "You need this email series for this and this email series for that."
But when you really just break it down at it's core. All you have to do is find somebody to help. And once you hear it in those super simple terms, all of the other auxiliary things you're hearing, they just fade away to the background and you can get super focused on that one thing.
ANDY: Yeah, if somebody had not read any of that guru stuff online they wouldn't know any of that stuff. They'd just literally do it. I just think of the 16 year old kid coming around with a lawnmower. "Do you need your grass cut?" "Actually I do, yeah." And then that's it. Did he need to get a book on cold calling? Did he need to get a logo and a website?
TONY: There's definitely a time and place for all of that. But when you're first getting started the concept is super simple. And I gotta thank you again Andy for giving me that clarity.
- One simple question got him unstuck.
- He's only been on Quora for 30 days helping people.
- He's only posted 29 times but is now top ranked for his subject matter.
- His bio sends people to a survey where he asks opened ended questions (as per the Ask book by Ryan Levesque).
- He's had 300 surveys and email addresses.
- He's done 5 free 30 minute coaching calls.
- One free coaching call converted on the spot to a $400 coaching package.
- His advice to people who want to start by building a website and autoresponder series.
I spent over 2 hours personally chopping this call down to only 25 minutes so it's no fluff and actionable. Do yourself a favour and give it a listen.
Well done @arobinson04
> Click here to access the recording <
What were your takeaways?
What will you do differently going forward?
EDIT: Wow... I didn't realise this recording was so old. Almost exactly 4 years later I've created a video out of it and published it to YouTube. It's tighter too (down to 17 minutes from 25 minutes).
TRANSCRIPT:
TONY: I think you messaged me on thefastlaneforum cos I followed you, and you said "Hey, thanks for following me."
And then I think I mentioned to you what I was working on, which was this new kind of website in the job hunting niche.
And your first question back was "Who have you helped?" And I was just dumbfound, I was like "Well, well, nobody yet."
And just that one question shifted my whole perspective on how I should go about doing this.
Cos I had a blog that I ran a few years ago in the personal development niche and I was focused on the wrong thing then which is why I don't think I got the results I was looking for.
That small change in perspective opened up a new approach of how to get things done.
ANDY: You read something of mine, and you liked it enough to follow me. So it's enough for me to go "This guy's raised his hand. Something I've done has interested him." So I just thanked you, and then I just asked a simple question of "How are you doing?"
And then I ask another little question. "Who do you help?" or "Who have you helped?" or "How are you gonna make a sale?" cos often people are off building stuff. I find it interesting watching people, go "Hmm, I haven't helped anyone. It'll be another 6 months before I can help them."
TONY: And from there, the next thing I started asking myself was like, man, how can I just get out in front of people and start trying to answer questions.
My first thought was let me find a forum where there's a lot of people that are talking about this topic that I'm trying to help people in. But I struggled to find an active forum about job hunting.
You're only in that phase for a short period of time. Most people if they've got a job they're happy with, they're not looking, they're not really worried about how to find a job.
So I struggled to find a community. And then I think I Googled a question related to LinkedIn and job hunting and it took me to Quora. And I was like, man, there's a ton of people in here just asking questions that I know I can give really good answers to. So I just started doing that. I was just spending a few hours every night when I got home from work, just answering different people's questions.
And within the first month I went from no answers on Quora ever to being the most viewed writer on anything related to LinkedIn profiles.
So that's how I started helping people. Just answering a ton of questions on Quora.
But the response to that was crazy. I didn't even really think that I would get people to join my email list. I just had a little tagline at the end of all my answers.
"Hey, if you wanna learn more, go here."
My list grew by about 300 people in that 1 month all through Quora and the lists are growing from there.
And then I layered this survey on top of my squeeze page where before you could opt in you had to answer4 or 5 questions about who you are, what you're struggling with, things like that.
I've almost 300 really detailed answers of what people are struggling with. And everyone's pretty much saying the same thing. "I'm applying for jobs or I'm reaching out to recruiters. And I don't know why I'm not getting a response." So I added something at the end of my autoresponder series when you first signed upoffering a free 30 minute coaching session.
"Hey, here's free 30 minutes. I'll walk through what you're struggling with and I'll just give you some advice."
So the very first one that I did, there was this lady from Texas and we're talking, I'm giving her all this advice. And then at the end, I said "Hey if you're interested I've got a coaching package." I was like "I'll sell it to you for $400." And she was like "Done."
ANDY: Wow.
TONY: Yeah, I was like "Really, that's it?" So that's how it happened. I got my first client, I've got a few more of these free chat sessions coming up, so hoping I can land some more.
And just yesterday I finished a little 15 page action guide that I'm gonna sell as a trip wire for everyone who signed up for the email list. Answering all those questions on the front end was huge.
Helping all those people on Quora. They were so willing to share what they were struggling with through that surveyand then taking that data with talking to people and now I've got a really good idea of what this market is struggling with and where I can help them.
ANDY: I love it, I love it. In one month, just one month?
TONY: One month flat. And it was crazy because when I was running my last website in the personal development space I spent so much time trying to get my websites to look great and doing all these plugins and I just focused a lot of time on the website.
And this time around I think I've got 3 blog posts up there and that's it.
And I wrote those in that first week haven't really touched it since but my email list is growing faster than it was before. And it's because my focus wasn't on "How can I make my website look great?" or "How can I get this plugin to work?" it was like "Man, how can I just go out connect with someone, help them and give them something of value?" And it's made all the difference.
ANDY: How many times have you posted do you think in Quora?
TONY: I think I've got 29 answers on there.
ANDY: Only 29 and you've got this amount of volume.
TONY: Yeah and the other people that are in that LinkedIncommunity that are answering questions, they've got like hundreds, and one guy even has well over a thousand answers so it's definitely more about the quality of the answer than the quantity.
ANDY: I presume you didn't go in saying "Hi, I'm Tony, I'm a LinkedIn expert." You just started answering questions?
TONY: Yeah I was just in there was like "Hey, I can answer that" or "Hey, I can answer this one too". And then once I got a few under my belt I was like "I should probably put like a tagline in here so people can at least find my email list."
ANDY: So you did that afterwards. I approve of that as well. It's like just go out and do it and then you go "Oh damn, I wonder if I've lost a few people? I wonder if a few people might have been looking for a bit more information? I'd better are now gonna create it."
Whereas other people do it the other way round. "In case people want to find more information, I'll go and create a really good looking website and a lead magnet."
Then they go and do something and it's all tumbleweeds and nobody would've found it anyway.
So you might as well just go out, help people, become known as the LinkedIn guy because you HELP people with LinkedIn not because you say "I am the LinkedIn guy". It's that whole "Show don't tell" which is great.
And I've just remembered when we were messaging in the forum before you went off looking for communities to help you were coming up with your tagline, llike who you help and what you help them with. And I remember it was quite big and we condensed it quite a bit.
TONY: Yeah, so when I first started off, and this is something I struggled with before, iit's just like casting the net too wide. I think initially I was talking about you know, I just, "I, I help everybody with LinkedIn. Um, and then, you know, you and I going back and forth as like "Who specifically can you help?"
And I was like "I know what industry I'm in so I can help people in my industry." And we were able to keep paring that list down. But I guess what I've discovered through all this is that there's two ways to define who you are and who you help.
You can help a specific, segment of people right? "I help people who are 5' 11 that wanna play basketball but can't dunk or whatever." Or you can help, people with a specific problem, right? "It doesn't matter who you are, but if you want to get really, really, really good at using your LinkedIn profile so that when you submit an application people respond I'm the guy to help you."
And as I've, talked to all these people I realized, okay that's what people are asking for and I know that's what I'm good at so let me focus on this one very specific problem.
ANDY: That's really interesting because we boiled it down previously to who you help, what you help with, how you do it. It was slightly demographic based. It was like people in a particular type of job. We help those people to get jobs through LinkedIn
TONY: Yeah, using a good LinkedIn profile
ANDY: Whereas your other way of doing it is more down to the intent of the person.
TONY: Yeah, they want to create a good LinkedIn profile.
ANDY: I like both ways, but I like that way particularly because I can see my search engine brain is instantly "I don't care what size you are or height you are whether you like basketball or not. If you searched for this then you're interested in that thing I can do."
The demographics don't matter it's just your intent.
TONY: Yeah, and again it all came down to me not thinking "This is what people want to hear." But reading survey after survey and everyone saying the exact same thing "I don't know why I'm not getting responses to my application.
I don't know why people are looking at my profile, but not reaching out to me." That just opened my eyes up to say "Hey, here's what I'm meant to go after."
ANDY: It's really interesting you put the survey on before people submit their email. Did you notice that affected the amount of people entered their email or not?
TONY: No, and it's crazy, if anything, more people have been signing up since I added the survey on. And I've got two different squeeze pages, one has the survey on there, one doesn't. And the one that has the survey is converting higher than the one that doesn't.
I don't know if it's this market that I'm looking at specifically where people are just really engaged and want to be able to give me all the information so I can help them. But, I guess building that relationship up upfront has been pretty helpful.
ANDY: Yeah, it's kind of what they call the micro commitments isn't it?
TONY: Right.
ANDY: They filled in that then it's like "Damnit, I'm gonna fill all the thing in."
And are you studying the “Ask” book by Ryan Levesque?
TONY: Yes yeah, so I just finished that and that's where I got the whole survey idea from and that whole concept just really clicked with me.
Between what you told me about helping people, and then what you learn from the Ask book about getting to know your audience and your customers. Those two concepts that's what's really enabled me to get off to this good start so far.
ANDY: That's really interesting cos he studied Dr Glenn Livingston's stuff and I think he was his top student, and he's took that survey method, and he's grown a $10m a year company with 50 people in it. He's got the book and software and all that kind of stuff.
I remember studying it as well. I've got a little company just me and a couple of freelancers. But the main thing I took out of this course is if you put up a survey you'll get a lot of people filling in the open-ended things like "What are you looking for today?", "What are you struggling with?"
And a lot of people will reply with "Oh, I just need to pass an exam."
And then somebody will write a load, and that "hyper-responsive" person is writing a load of information in a form to a complete stranger because they are super frustrated.
The reason they're super frustrated is they've been around looking for a solution for a long while and looked at everything on the market and they can't find it and it's really bugging them.
Glenn's thing was like "50 people said this, that's important. You want that on your sales page.But the things you're gonna learn from the few people out of the 100 who write a tonne is potentially more useful than 50 people all saying the same thing. Because those people are possibly more educated about the market."
TONY: And that concept, about going after who's really hungry. That client who paid me the money for the coaching,she reached out to me not once but twice. Asking me like "Hey, I'm really interested in working with you. Can you please get back to me?"
And then, just to your point about the hyper-responsiveness, when I got on the phone with her and I was of hearing her story, I'm taking notes and now I'm using the exact phrases that she was saying about how she was struggling, in my copy, as I'm now getting ready to launch this ebook.
One of the things she told me was that she had been looking for so long that she had lost confidence in herself as a candidate. And I can't imagine how many other people are feeling that same way. So if I'm this person and I feel like I've lost confidence in myself, and then I open up my email inbox and I see a headline that says "Has your job search made you lose your confidence?" or something along that line I'm gonna open that up and I'm gonna be engaged.
So it's been a really cool experience.
ANDY: Yeah, using the language they give you and then give it back.
TONY: It was the easiest email subject line I ever had to write, just copy and paste.
ANDY: You're getting all these responses. I presume people are still trickling in.
TONY: Absolutely.
ANDY: Some of those are going to the free phone call, which by the way is a hyper-responsive thing.
When I send someone a thank you in the forum for following me I get a great little interaction and then sometimes I end up with a big long conversation.
Like with yourself, it was quite a lot of backwards and forwards and we honed in on something. I wasn't surprised that you popped up later on having done something because you wouldn't have continued that conversation for so long if you weren't hyper-responsive yeah?
TONY: Absolutely.
ANDY: It's like when I send visitors to a website, if they were searching for something I don't need to make the website look really pretty. In a way if it looks a bit ugly and I'm not selling too hard then the people who ring my clients they're more likely to convert because they don't care what the website looks like they're just that annoyed. So you're getting people coming through. Some of them are frustrated enough to wanna speak to a complete stranger for 30 minutes.
Even though you're giving it away for free, you can't give it away to everybody because it's their time that they're giving to you. And then also some people are shy and whatnot. That's one of the best things I've been doing is if people are stuck with something
I'll go "Oh look, why don't we just jump on a call and have a chat?" And I might spend 30 minutes chatting about something, but then I learn so much. I can help them, they can go off. Most of 'em don't turn into a client and that's not the intention, but the amount of stuff I learn like "Wow, so many people are saying they've lost confidence in the such and such."
How many of these free phone calls have you had?
TONY: Just five, so I had my first one about nine days ago,and then I've had four since then. I've had one convert out of those five.
ANDY: And if you start recording some of those, obviously let them know beforehand like "Are you happy I record this? I can give it to you and maybe use it for training later."
Then you might take out two minute segments or five minute segments. It can be a YouTube video. It could be a Facebook video. It would work pretty good on Facebook I think. How many people might not be looking for a job at that moment in time but they're in the market?
"Lost confidence in da da da da? This is a quick solution." could work really well.
Are you planning to continue doing the 30 minute conversations with people?
TONY: I think so just cos there's so much value in it. I mean it's beneficial to me because I'm getting to know the customer even more, right? You get a lot of insights from a survey, but being able to talk on the phone to someone and ask them that follow up question in the moment. It's invaluable just learning about my audience.
And then two, I am helping people, even in those 30 minutes I'm able to in the same way that you just asked me one question and it completely shifted my whole paradigm on how to get this thing started, I've heard that same thing in people that I've talked to. "You're doing it this way, but if you just change this one small thing I guarantee the results will get better." Definitely something I'll keep up with.
ANDY: And if you can see it in video, you get to see that aha moment. I've seen people sit back and go "Ohhhh."
You'd hear it in the phone as well if it was just audio, but when they sit back and go "Ohh" it's like they're doing a face palm.
I'm looking for those little twists, little twists that'll help people just get unstuck.
You've answered 29 things. You might find your repeating yourself and you might go "I've seen this before, where is it?"
You go and copy/paste and then you go "I must stop copy/pasting."
And then you go and write a nice article on it, and that article is battle tested. It got created because you did it once to answer somebody, then again, and then you're like, I'm done creating this loads of times, I'm gonna create an article.
That article is gonna help loads of people cos it's already helped a few people. Versus if you sit and write a blog post with a blank screen and go "What should I write about?"
TONY: Exactly.
ANDY: You've got no idea whether it can help anybody and then nobody's gonna find it, whereas this way... it's just a better way to do it.
And then once I got speaking to people I knew what they were stuck on, but I then could figure out WHY they were stuck on it. They all kept saying the same thing, the patterns were always the same.
And then once I figured that out, then I ended up creating a course, and then who did I sell that course to? But all the people who already know me as the AdWords guy. I *released* it, I didn't *launch* it with a big fanfare and a fancy countdown timer like it's gonna go up in price and all that stuff. Just released it slowly into the forum, had sales over 18 months and there we go.
And now I know that course will sell to people who already know, like, and trust me. The sales page worked for those people. All I need to do is get people who don't know me to know, like, and trust me, and then I can present it.
TONY: That's what I'm focusing on a lot right now too. So taking all those questions that I'm answering on Quora... and doing a lot of what you just said too but, instead of putting them on my blog, I'm adding them to my email responder. Once you get on my list, you'll go through just like a short indoctrination series where I tell you a little bit about who I am and my story.
And then I'll start sending you strictly content pieces and I'm just repurposing all these different answers that I'm giving on Quora and then just throwing those into the email responder. Cos maybe one person found me on answer number one but they haven't seen answers 22 through 28 right. That's my goal in kind of, building that whole know, like, and trust piece.
Now when I do start offering more of these products and services they know who I am and what I'm offering.
ANDY: You've got one sale now…
TONY: It happened I don't wanna say effortlessly because there's definitely a lot of work that went into making that happen, but when I think about how I started before I invested all this time front "Okay let me build all these lead magnets." "Let me build all these sales pages." "Let me write this copy." "Let me create these email autoresponders."
I did it the wrong way. Let me talk to people first, let me understand what they're struggling with first. Let me help somebody. And then from there, once I have a really good understanding of what the market's struggling with then I can go back and be really focused with what I'm making because I know it's gonna convert because this is what they told me they want.
ANDY: And have you had your coaching call yet? The paid one?
TONY: Yeah, we actually just had it yesterday morning. That was the first paid one that we had and it went great. It went so well. She told me that she took so much away from that first session. So there's a buzz there of just helping.
ANDY: I'm doing the same thing, I'm helping people put a roof over their heads. That's what you're doing. You're helping them. You're helping their immediate family. You're helping their extended family cos their mom and dad are worried about them if they haven't got a job and all this kind of stuff.
What would you recommend to somebody now if they were like "I've got this idea I'm gonna go build a website an autoresponder series and blah, blah, blah?"
TONY: The first thing I would say is just find someone that you feel you can help. If they're asking a question on a forum, or even someone from your personal life like if someone's personally struggling with what it is you feel you can bring value with just go out there and help someone.
See if what you have to offer is actually solving a problem for them. And if it is, get to know that problem on a very intimate level right? What is it exactly that they're struggling with? What are the thoughts that are running through their minds? What are the mental hurdles they feel they have to jump through to get to that solution.
And once you've done that then all the other work is laid out already.
You've already got the framework that you need to go follow.
Find someone to help. Help 'em. Pay attention, ask good questions and everything else takes care of itself. But it's just so strange cos you hear a lot of the internet gurus who talk about super complex marketing strategies and techniques. "You need this one click upsell" and "You need this multilayered funnel" and "You need to remarket people who opt in for your lead magnet but don't buy your trip wire" and "You need this email series for this and this email series for that."
But when you really just break it down at it's core. All you have to do is find somebody to help. And once you hear it in those super simple terms, all of the other auxiliary things you're hearing, they just fade away to the background and you can get super focused on that one thing.
ANDY: Yeah, if somebody had not read any of that guru stuff online they wouldn't know any of that stuff. They'd just literally do it. I just think of the 16 year old kid coming around with a lawnmower. "Do you need your grass cut?" "Actually I do, yeah." And then that's it. Did he need to get a book on cold calling? Did he need to get a logo and a website?
TONY: There's definitely a time and place for all of that. But when you're first getting started the concept is super simple. And I gotta thank you again Andy for giving me that clarity.
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