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Childbirth - Is there a better way?

AroundTheWorld

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Warning: LONG. (Bilge, Phlgirl - you asked for it! ;) )

First of all, I don't have the latest statistics - it has been a few years since I was in this field, but I venture to say that the numbers are no better now...

America is failing at providing safe, effective, healthy and satisfying childbirth for families. We have ranked somewhere near 16th / 17th in the world for infant mortality. There are 15 to 16 nations that do better than we do when it comes to keeping our infants safe. Why? While there are other factors, it is largely due to our birth practices in America.

The nations that consistently rank at the top of the list (Scandinavian Countries usually) "do birth" very differently than we do. Birth is viewed as a normal natural process that is best when done at home and with the aide and company of other women (Midwives and Doulas). Obstetricians and hospitals are reserved for that very small percentage of births that actually develop a complication or are considered high risk.

Learn about alternatives (to a hospital birth w/ an obstetrician). Learn about Natural Childbirth. Talk to a Midwife and a Doula. Then - - - MAKE THE DECISION that is best for you. Maybe it is a hospital birth. That is okay. Maybe it is a home birth. That is okay too. But KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A DECISION. Birth does not have to be in the hospital and a hospital birth is very different from a home birth. Don't just go with the default idea about what birth is like in America. Learn about it first - and then make a decision for yourself and your family.

What is the problem with hospital births?​


Women having hospital births attended by obstetricians have a disadvantage from the start. Why? Because they are instantly viewed as a patient rather than a woman preparing for a natural event. Interventions are applied to the patient that actually LEAD to REAL problems. There is a chain reaction that occurs in hospital births that leads to unacceptably high statistics (rate of mortality, rate of cesarean births, postpartum depression, epesiodomies, and more)

So, what happens in a hospital birth?

  1. First the woman is laid flat on her back and strapped to monitors. On her back is the worst possible way to labor. It stalls labor and it makes the woman uncomfortable. The monitors certainly do not lend to her comfort either.
  2. Next, she is given an IV as a matter of standard procedure. If she presses and asks why, she will be told it is "just in case" or that it is to provide her with nourishment. Why does she need nourishment?
  3. Because she is told she can no longer eat. Why? Because they don't want her to have anything in her stomach "just in case" she has a cesarean.
  4. The IV actually serves in slowing down labor. The fluid is diluting the natural hormones that are causing the contractions.
  5. So, now are woman-going-through-a-natural-process has just barely arrived and already she has been set up for failure.
  6. She is flat on her back.
  7. Uncomfortable
  8. Been given an IV
  9. All leading to a slow or stalled labor
  10. And...
  11. Been told she can't eat .
  12. What next?
  13. She is eventually told that her labor is not progressing quickly enough. So.... they break her water (exposing her to a greater risk of infection, making the labor more painful, and making the labor more difficult on the baby)
  14. Then, likely, they give her pitocin. Good thing they had that IV all ready to go, right? Now, her labor grows extremely painful. She is not able to cope as well as she could because:
  15. She is stuck on her back in bed.
  16. She has the monitors on... (they must be on continuously now because the pitocin makes contractions very hard and puts the baby at a higher risk).
  17. She has IV's coming out of her arm and blood pressure cuffs on the other....
  18. She is denied the ability to walk, move, change positions (she can get into limited positions on her bed, but not many) and the comfort of water (baths, showers).
  19. Now, she is progressing (according to the arbitrary schedule put in place by the Obstetric Industry) but her pain is much greater than it would have been and she isn't able to do the things she needs to do to cope...
  20. Enter pain measures.
  21. First, she is given something to "take the edge off." What it actually does is make her groggy and unable to move or communicate well, but the pain has not gone away at all.
  22. So, then she is given an epidural. The pain goes completely away, but so does her emotional connection to the birth, and her ability to move and push effectively.
  23. Since she can now no longer feel the pain, the docs. increase the pitocin in an effort to speed along the labor. This adds additional strain to the baby.
  24. Now - - - time to push. Only mom can't push. She is in a horrible pushing position and can't get into a different one because she doesn't have control over her body. She also simply isn't able to push as effectively as she could have had she not had the epidural.
  25. If she delivers vaginally, she is likely to have a large epesiodomy performed. Doc thinks it is better to cut than to tear. All sorts of reasons that isn't true, but best illustrated with this example. Try to tear a piece of cloth. Pretty hard, right? Now, put a little cut into the end of the cloth, and try to tear again. Now you are able to do it easily. Forceps and/ or vacuum also much more likely to be used - causing larger injury to mother and to baby.
  26. Then.... either she runs out of time, and goes in for a cesarean or the baby becomes distressed and she goes in for a cesarean.
  27. Whether born vaginally or by a cesarean, baby is immediately removed from mom and bonding is hindered.

What are some of the results of a birth like this?

  • Cesareans have a much longer and more painful recovery period
  • Mom is cut off emotionally from the birth experience
  • She has a longer and more painful wound if she was able to deliver vaginally
  • Baby is not as alert.
  • Mom feels very groggy and tired the following days - - - a result of coming off the pain meds.
  • Baby has increased difficulty nursing because they were immediately removed from mom and washed.

I have had three births (one, my last, without many of the interventions listed above - and with no pain meds) I have also attended dozens of other births.

Here is the thing that gets me..... it is knowledge of how birth is IF all the interventions are reserved for a time when they are truly needed.

In a natural childbirth, the baby actually participates in the process. Babies have a few natural reflexes and one is that if you touch the bottom of their feet, they push against it.... straighten their leg. Well, in a natural birth, the baby uses this reflex during the pushing phase of labor and actually participates in pushing his/her self out of the womb. A baby w/ an epidural does not do this. The baby also turns it's own head at the crucial time to aid in getting out. An epidural baby does not.

Things are different after the birth as well: There is an amazing study - with accompanying video showing the difference between a baby born with no pain meds and a baby born with. If a baby is born with no pain meds and is not separated from mom after birth, the baby can actually crawl up moms tummy and begin to nurse with NO ASSISTANCE

If a woman is given the chance to birth naturally with the support of other women, she is so much more likely to have a more satisfying birth, a much better recovery period, an easier time nursing, feel more confident as a mother, and have a decreased chance of postpartum depression.

In closing.... it comes down to education and not just going with the status quo or doing birth the way "they" say birth is to be done. Learn about your choices, reflect on your priorities and how you want your birth to be... Make an informed decision.
 
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EComGuy

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Great topic.

My son Kingston was born last year. For lack of better words, it was horrific.

My wife and I do not want to have anymore kids for an outcome like what we had the first go around. Here's a brief overview of what we had to overcome.

- Wife is insulin dependant diabetic. She uses a Medtronic insulin pump, instead of the before 12 shots a day. Instantly a high-risk pregnancy.
- Here A1C was in the 7's when she started because of the control the pump had.
- Doctor takes her off of the pump, claims 'She makes the decision'
- One month, her A1C is up a point and a half.
- We switch doctors 3 1/2 months in. Huge hassel.
- The months of pregnancy go with out a hitch with new doctor.
- Doctor goes into labor August 6th.
- My wife has blindness/cramping on August 8th.
- Rush to the hospital and call the attending OB.
- I explained what was going on, (she was 3 weeks early) and the Dr says, "well what do you want me to do about it? shes 3 months early, she's not in labor. You make the call'
- Admit her in the hospital for tests, its now August 9th.
- Administer drugs to my wife to stop contractions and try to delay delivery.
- Send us home at 5pm on the 10th because contractions have stopped.
- Wake up August 11th, she says that she is in labor.
- Rush to the hospital where the doctor takes 2 1/2 to get to us.
- He says shes still to early and she's going to have to grin and bare it for a while. This is normal
- 1pm my wifes water breaks. We tell the nurse.
- 1 hour later the nurse checks on her. She is 7.5cm dialated. No epidural.
- 45mins later doctor arrives to administer the epid.
- Epidural not inserted correctly, drips fluid down her back. Fetal heart rate drops to 23bpm. She's now 9.5 cm dialated.
- Fetal heart rate decreases to 18 bpm while they are preparing the delivery room and contacting our ob.
- 22 mins go by and finally they rush her into delivery.
- The nurse on duty that is wheeling her into the delivery room lets go of the medical carousel and 2 IV's are torn from her arm.
- Babies head is to big for the birth canal. Misdiagonsis number 1.
-Use 'baby tongs' to pull my son out. Laceration to the left eye and left cranial region.
- Nurse says 'we need to get the ana-ologist in to prepare for a section. (Note: this is 45 minutes that have gone by with less that 20bpm from the baby)
- Doctor insists that he can deliver the baby vaginally.
- Uses suction to pull baby by force. Results, suction popped off 3 times, and took with it 3 large sections of his scalp complete with hair folicals.
- Baby is finally delievered. No movement on left side.
- Baby is admitting to intensive care and they fly in a neonatal specialist due to his PKU results. Due to the trama in my sons head he had low iron levels, blood in urine and fecal matter, and stopped breathing 7 times his first night of life.
- Three and half weeks later he comes home. Wounds on top of his head still extremely dominant. Head is oblong due to stress. Also has a low immunity rating due to the trama in his head making him very prone to a lifethreatening infection.
- 3 months go by, scab has not healed, ANY.
- Son has MRSA staph swapped off of his now badly infected head wound.

Theres a lot more to this story, but you get the point. Basically I speny 160K on litigate this case to have the hospital settle out of court. Doctor moved to Indiana, started and new practice, and was soon found and stripped of his license to practice.

It truely made a special day terrible, and we are set on not having another child.

Please take his words to heart as we are still overcoming obstacles caused by this.

Best,

PerryC
 

phlgirl

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Very interesting. Thanks ATW and Perry for taking the time!! +++

I had always wondered about the midwife/doula options but never understood why it was such a popular route for some.

I will definitely do my homework should we ever need to make that decision. :)

Perry - I am terribly sorry that you and your family had such a traumatic experience. I hope everyone is recovering well.
 

Sid23

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The Business of Being Born. Great documentary produced by Ricki Lake. Check it out.
 
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Russ H

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PerryC-

As parents who gave birth to a baby girl who had an apgar of 1, we totally feel for what you went through. Our little one (KT) was intubated by a neonatologist (she was not able to breathe on her own), and her blood gasses were completely messed up, meaning her little organs were not working the way the needed to. Within the first 15 minutes of her life, she was attended to by some very skilled and special people. She was in the NICU for several days, but Mom and KT came home together-- less than a week after she was delivered.

Today KT is a running, jumping, giggling happy little girl (she's almost 2). We love her more than words can say.

We are thankful every day that she is in our lives.

Perry, we hope your son continues to improve, and gets well.

We wish you all health, happiness, and many, many years together. :love1:

-Russ H.
 

EComGuy

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PerryC-

As parents who gave birth to a baby girl who had an apgar of 1, we totally feel for what you went through. Our little one (KT) was intubated by a neonatologist (she was not able to breathe on her own), and her blood gasses were completely messed up, meaning her little organs were not working the way the needed to. Within the first 15 minutes of her life, she was attended to by some very skilled and special people. She was in the NICU for several days, but Mom and KT came home together-- less than a week after she was delivered.

Today KT is a running, jumping, giggling happy little girl (she's almost 2). We love her more than words can say.

We are thankful every day that she is in our lives.

Perry, we hope your son continues to improve, and gets well.

We wish you all health, happiness, and many, many years together. :love1:

-Russ H.

Thank you very much Russ, and Im glad that your little on has blossomed.

We're still working with things, but unfortunately only time will tell.

God has a plan for everyone, even my son. We trust his final judgement.

Thanks again and best,

PerryC
 

EComGuy

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Seeing as its my son, I will post the picture just for informational purposes. Mods if this is to much, feel free to remove.

This is about 2 weeks after, when we could finally hold him.

head2.jpg


head1.jpg


Here's my little man now.

IMG_0433.jpg


DSC00739.jpg


IMG_0512_1.jpg
 
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AroundTheWorld

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Perry,

What a handsome little fellow!!! My thoughts go to you and your family. What a struggle it sounds like it has been for you. Take it a day at a time, actively participate in the decisions concerning his health care, and enjoy your family!



When I was a Doula, we used to use these little bedside cards to help parents make decisions. It was a list of five questions they could go through when staff came in with a proposed intervention. The parents could run through the questions then ask for a little time alone to consider the decision.

The main thing that leads to a dissatisfactory birthing experience is a feeling of lack of control. "They did x" rather than "we decided to do x"

Questions:

Is this an emergency, or do we have time to discuss it?
What will happen if we do this proceedure?
What will happen if we don't do this proceedure?
What will happen if we wait 30 minutes before we do this proceedure?
Are there alternative solutions?

These questions can work in any medical circumstance, not just childbirth. But they work very well in empowering the person receiving the care. So many times, particularly during a hospital birth, the staff does not ask for "concent" - - - they just come in and say, "we are going to.... (break the water, or give pitocin or give you an IV)" and it is done before you realize that you had a choice, that the intervention may not be necessary, and that it could be starting a chain reaction.

Childbirth Resources:

Books:

Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way (or the Bradley Method)
The Birth Book (Sears)
Look up Doula's and/or Midwives in your area. You may live in a state that does not allow home births, but if you find a doula, you will find an "in."
Mothering Magazine
Birthing from Within

Find a childbirth class offered by someone other than the hospital. Most Lamaze classes aren't bad. Bradley Method classes are great.
 

CactusWren

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Wow! Never thought we'd cover this topic here.
Perry - I am happy to see your son looks like he is doing very well.
ATW - Thanks for the thread, brought tears to my eyes

Knowledge is key. I had all three of my daughters at a birth center with a midwife. No drugs. My husband still thinks I am nuts! But of course he had to live through all three.

I can tell you that my first daughter was immediately placed on my stomach and literally crawled to my breast to nurse. Drugged babies could not dream of doing that!
 

AroundTheWorld

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My first two births were with pain meds. My third was drug free. Before I had my third birth - - - I did not realize that I was also being emotionally drugged. After experiencing it both ways - - - I can say from first hand experience that you are. An epidural does not just take the pain away. It takes your alertness and some of your emotions away too.

The day after is also like night and day. After my third (the drug free birth) I could have gone on a nice jog. With the other two, I was tired and groggy.

And - - - there was a difference in the babies too. Thanks for your first hand account of the crawling and nursing newborn Cactuswren!!! Love to hear those stories! Newborns have so many abilities that are over looked or "muffled" by drugs given during labor.
 
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Bilgefisher

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ATW,
Thanks for the replies. I don't have any kids and have never really bothered to learn about hospitals. Simple assumptions: its a hospital, they know what they're doing. When that time comes, I'll be sure to do my research. Thanks for the lengthy reply btw ++.

I know my sister's first two were c-section. The thirds in the oven :hurray:. She's 5 foot even and 100lbs. My nephew was huge. I really don't know how she even carried him. She had major complications with the birth. First the heartbeat slowed and then it was determined the umbilical cord was wrapped around his neck and flat. Pretty scary. From what I understand the c-section was a must. Since she had a c-section for the first she was told it was almost a forgone conclusion the 2nd would be the same. They doped her up so bad on the 2nd I don't think she even remembers much. She had one hell of a cough at the time and it pulled at those stitches every time. Nothing helped the pain.

I also know after the first, she won't even think of a natural birth. The pain was bad for that one as well. She's a tough cookie, so when she tells me it was hell, I don't question it.

Point of both the stories. I can see both ways (which I believe is your point. Let the women decide). I wonder though, had my sister not been in the hospital for the first, would my nephew be here today? He's a cool little dude too. Though it also makes me wonder if the pain for the 2nd was a must if c-section may not have been necessary. Again, not a doctor. I do wonder why within the last 20 years all these meds have been necessary when the previous umteen thousand years women didn't need them.

All my info is third and 4th hand. I was deployed for the first. We went to periscope depth for email. I got one email stating there was complications and she was rushed to the hospital. No more emails for 17 days. That was a long 17 days.

Either way, your points are some food for thought for the future and something I will definitely research when the time comes..
 

rcardin

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If I can get my wife in here she can tell you about water birth. Our daughter ( my stepdaughter of 9+ years) was the first water baby in Nacogdoches, Tx. I will get her to tell the story as I don't know all of it.
 

Russ H

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rcardin-

I for one would love to hear her account. :smx9:

*********

Rereading my previous post, I think I come off as too preachy or "holier than thou".

That really wasn't my intent.

It's hard to put this into words. at least for me, without sounding "off".

I'm sorry about this.

But it's a worthwhile topic. I'll keep working at it. :smx2:

-Russ H.
 
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randallg99

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I found the C-section for our second child to be oddly civilized in comparison to the natural delivery my wife gave to our first child...

the whole birthing process is downright nerve wracking
 

Bilgefisher

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ATW,

Honest question, how do you get around some complications at childbirth when its performed at home? I now understand the whole natural birth concept and kudos to any women that choose to do so, but what if something comes up and more intense medical treatment is needed?
 

AroundTheWorld

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ATW,

Honest question, how do you get around some complications at childbirth when its performed at home? I now understand the whole natural birth concept and kudos to any women that choose to do so, but what if something comes up and more intense medical treatment is needed?

You transport to the hospital when it becomes clear that some sort of intervention that is beyond the midwifes training or ability is needed. (She can handle alot more situations than you would think . . . with more gentle practices) Very few "emergencies" in a childbirth situation require you to get a cesarean in 10 minutes. In a hospital setting, by the time the decision is made for a cesarean, it takes 30 to 45 minutes to call in the necessary people, clear and prepare the OR and get mom in there.

If complications occur at home, the midwife can call ahead. Explain the situation. The hospital staff can begin preparing the OR, midwife or ambulance transports mom, and she is in the OR in the same amount of time it would have taken had she been in the hospital all along.

The thing I want to stress here, though, is that a majority of complications that occur are DUE TO hospital interventions.... not saved by hospital interventions. Birth is a normal, natural thing. Of course, occasionally there really are high risk pregnancies or TRUE complications that can develop. When that happens, an OB is the way to go.

OB = Medical Professional
Midwife = Childbirth Expert

If all you have on your hands is a baby in your womb; go with the childbirth expert.
If you have true medical complications; go with the medical professional.
 
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rcardin

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From my wife:
My daughter was born through a water birth. She was actually the first water birth at that hospital/town ( it was a small town). Basically it happened like this.... I had her naturally. When you have a child naturally you try to do certain things that are relaxing or that would distract you from the pain. So I took a bath. Then I couldn't get out of the bath because I was too scared, exhausted, and confused. Imagine that:> So the midwife said that I could stay in the bathtub. Now to make it clear it wasn't like a household bath tub, it was a big fancy hospital bathtub. ( Seriously, I'm not joking. I would install one in my own home.) So, it just happenned that way. No planning at all. Not to be gross, but I will never get the memory of my water breaking in the tub out of my head. It was REALLY cool. The rest is pretty much history. The hard part was that I had to get up out of the tub totally unclothed and walk to the bed to deliver the afterbirth. Although I wasn't worried about clothing at that point. Everyone had seen what they had seen by that time. Although anybody would feel weird about walking naked to your hospital bed with three people supporting you. I know it sounds gross, but that was the hardest part of the whole birth. And probably one of the many reasons we don't have more children. I was completely appreciative of the fact that the nurses and midwives were able to do that for me. I know that there are more sophisticated of having a water birth and mine was by accident so to speak. I loved it and wouldn't trade it for the world.
 

AroundTheWorld

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to rcardin's wife:

Thank you for sharing your birth story!

something about giving birth does something to your modesty.... ;)
 

Russ H

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rcardin-

Please pass on my sincere thanks to your wife for sharing this. I found it fascinating.

This is becoming quite a thread.

Sonya, I never would have imagined this on these forums-- but that's what I love about it here-- sharing things w/a group of like minded and supportive people can make for some very interesting conversations.

Perry- I didn't mention it earlier. Your little one is a real cutie. I hope he does well in the coming months and years. :)

Apologies again for my preachy derailment-- but I really wanted to say what I said (just wish I was better at saying it!).

-Russ H.
 
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AroundTheWorld

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I found the C-section for our second child to be oddly civilized in comparison to the natural delivery my wife gave to our first child...

the whole birthing process is downright nerve wracking

Childbirth can be pretty tough on the dads...

They see their loved one in pain....
They want to help.....
But can't take the pain away....
Some feel helpless
or overwhelmed
and can't really remember.... was it hee-hee-hoo or hee-hoo-hoo?
what was that I was to do if she has back labor?
and he just down right hates seeing his loved one suffer.


That is where a doula comes in.

She knows how to help mom get through. She remembers what to do with back labor. And she can provide empathy like no other (she has been there, done that)....

This frees up dad to do for her what only he can do. Love her. Hold her hand and say 'I lvoe you, I love you.' Without the pressure of remembering what to do and the burden of trying to take the pain away.
 

AroundTheWorld

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Sonya, I never would have imagined this on these forums-- but that's what I love about it here-- sharing things w/a group of like minded and supportive people can make for some very interesting conversations.


-Russ H.

I have to say... I am SO pleasantly surprised at the reaction to this thread.

Once upon a time, childbirth was a large part of my life. I had a TRUE passion for it. It has been so fun for me to see people participating in this thread (here of all places!!!). My sincerest thank you to everyone that has shown an interest and asked questions and shared stories. Very cool to bring the birthing issue to this forum! (chuckling to myself). It has actually, perhaps, been a little healing for me.
 

Russ H

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As I was on my way to the cafeteria (they were wheeling Sharon into the delivery room, and wanted me to take a break), all of a sudden, it hit me:

Within the next few minutes, not only could I lose our baby-to-be, but my wife and best friend.

The realization was terrifying.

It really put into perspective how the old fashioned dads must have felt as they waited outside the birthing room. Not knowing, worrying, wondering if they'd ever see their baby or wife alive . . .

It's not that I dwelled on this. But it hit me like a cold bolt of lighting.

Chilled me to my core.

Much of the next few hours were wonderful, and I wouldn't trade any of it for the world.

Sonya, I know you have strong feelings about this. And I'm really glad you're posting all of this. We learn more about each other with every passing day.

And through the process, we learn more about ourselves, as well.

-Russ H.
 
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I remember watching doctor tv shows as a kid and they always referenced the Hippocratic Oath at the time I thought it was quaint and corny. As an adult I know now that its your job as a patient to assume the doctors and nurses don't know what their doing until they prove themselves to be trustworthy and competent. Patients are vulnerable to fall into false comfort from the image of authority and are easily taken advantage of.

Ask questions until you understand the answers and are confident they know what there doing.

It's your right and obligation to call bullshit and tell the doctor or nurse you want someone else to help you.

None of this sounds right. I guess its an emotional issue from experiences.
 

AroundTheWorld

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irace7,

So true. Informed consent is the name of the game.

They are not allowed to "do things" to you without your consent.

So - - - ask the questions you need to ask.
Then, either give your consent - or don't.
Your body, your life. (or your child's life if it is concerning their care.)

That is why I love the informed consent card. You can actually print or write it on a note card and carry it with you when you go to the doctor. Sometimes, it is overwhelming and you aren't able to think up questions on the spot. Later, you wish you had. It is nice to be able to pull out that card, and ask the questions...

Is this an emergency or we have time to talk?
What will happen if we don't do this procedure?
What will happen if we do? (side effects, etc.)
What will happen if we wait to do it?
What are the alternatives?

It is also nice to have someone that you trust go with you. If you get overwhelmed with news or the situation, they can pull out the card and ask the questions.
 

Bilgefisher

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I have to say... I am SO pleasantly surprised at the reaction to this thread.

One thing is the audience. I think folks on this board generally have a fascination with knowledge and are fairly open to learning new concepts. This being one of them. So what if its not about business, this forum is more then just business anyway. Its about life and decisions we make to make a better life for ourselves.

So many times on forums I have seen disagreements lead to many issues. Folks feel empowered behind that computer screen and lose their decency to others. Here over the last year, Ive seen a community form. Its actually pretty cool to watch.

sorry for the derailment.
 
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kidgas

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First of all, I would like to say that I enjoy this thread and find it very interesting. Many of you may find this link on neonatal and perinatal mortality from the World Health Organization very interesting:

http://www.who.int/making_pregnancy_safer/publications/neonatal.pdf

The lowest estimates of perinatal mortality are in the range of 4 per 1000 and the United States comes in at 7 per 1000, and when I count, I count 19 countries with rates less than 7 which would put the United States at 20th for perinatal mortality. I am seeing this information in Annex 1 of the above report.

That being said, I would like to make sure that apples are being compared to apples.

Known risk factors for perinatal mortality include:
Maternal age
Prematurity of the infant
Multiple gestation
just to name a few

Here is an article that finds the same rate of perinatal mortality when the excess of preterm deliveries in the U.S. is backed out.

JAMA -- Abstract: Birth weight and perinatal mortality. A comparison of the United States and Norway, March 1, 1995, Wilcox et al. 273 (9): 709

So, I think one must be careful when looking at certain data points and making conclusions about an entire health care system unless one looks at the society for which that system must care. Obviously, some aspect of technology must be beneficial or many of the underdeveloped nations would have lower perinatal mortality rates. Unfortunately, application of technology is not always wise or consistent (eg people kill, not handguns).

I agree with ATW that the majority of healthy mothers can easily handle childbirth with the assistance of a midwife (as they have been doing since the dawn of humanity). However, I don't feel that a broad-based indictment of health care is warranted without looking at the many "moving parts".

Anyway, a very enjoyable and interesting thread. I enjoy the discussion.
 

Russ H

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Thanks, Sonya.

Cool idea. :)

-Russ H.
 
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AroundTheWorld

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Done at Diane's request!
 

Runum

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I have read this thread with fascination. I and my wife are well past the childbearing stage of life so I have nothing to add. I just wanted to say thanks for sharing the knowledge you have and stories about this subject. I did not know all of this existed. I'll definitely be doing more research when it comes time for grandkids.:cheers:
 

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