Imminent Threat Survival

[Lex DeVille]

Can we talk strategy without politics or religion?

Given the events in France, Orlando, and elsewhere...

And @Vigilante podcast about the OODA loop....

If you were at a public event and were trapped with no escape what would be some strategies for survival?

I was thinking about the people in the restroom, trapped in a room with no escape. They had to know this guy would be coming. Is there time to organize a counter offensive? He thinks he has total control by fear. You and your peeps in the bathroom have the advantage of numbers and element of surprise.

You have been drinking and now running on full adrenaline, sweating and scared.

Thinking about resources available and the imminent threat, some ideas came to mind.

1) The toilet seats could be removed and used as a weapon

2)the stall doors could be used as a shield or ram

3)Your belts could be tied together to make a trip.

You know where he will enter and you have a good idea about his posture. You know if he enters and controls the room you most likely will not survive.

Any other situational ideas are welcome.

Are there any legal, strategic weapons that one could carry into a bar or concert?

Again, I don't want to devolve into rights, gun control, politics, or religion. Please keep responses to strategy and strategic information.

Just as the forum has a "Fastlane" mindset, I'd suggest there is also a "survival" mindset.

So imagining and mentally rehearsing situations is key. Awareness of surroundings and exits is also key.

When police and military breach a room there are several elements that come into play:

Surprise
Speed of attack
Loudness
Aggressiveness

A lion jumps out of the bushes and charges you while roaring, then bites your face off while you stand in place. That's an example.

It's also a mentality. Reactor versus responder. Victims react. Police respond.

Weapons:
Toilet seat
palms of hands thrust toward face
Heel of toe kicking a shin can't be seen from eye level if you're close.
Bathroom / stall door depending on which way it opens
Elbows
Keys (not held between knuckles unless you want to break your fist)
Phone
Biting
Any blunt object

The gunman holds the weapon out in front of him meaning it enters the room first. Standing beside the door (inside the room) the weapon can be grabbed while someone smashes the face of the assailant with the back of a toilet or other object.

In any case fight or flight dictates the weapon can't be complicated because everything except gross motor movements goes out the window.

Non-Weapon:
Yelling / screaming
Mean mug with teeth bearing

Duck and cover:
Distance + Objects between you and the assailant = better chance to avoid getting hit.
If running away run in a zigzag pattern as much as possible.
Crouch to the floor, but don't lay on it. Creates a smaller target for bullets ricocheting or traveling along the floor.
Get away from walls. Bullets can travel along walls.

Standard order for non-combatants:

Escape the building.
If escape is impossible, hide.
If hiding is impossible, fight.

If police breach the building, drop to the floor and don't move until they tell you, or risk getting shot.

There are a thousand things you might possibly maybe potentially consider.
Until it happens it's really difficult to know how you'll respond.

Here's a link to a free FEMA online active shooter training if anyone is interested.

 

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[Vigilante]

I have been trained a bit in Krav Maga.

It's likely that someone with marginally more training than I have, and in the rest room could have disarmed the assailant. Who knows. My Krav instructor would have had the guy dead if SHE was in that restroom. I might not succeed, but would certainly die trying. Flip the crazy switch and see what happens.

I do know that in almost all public places, I will walk in creating a mental checklist, now by reflex. People, exits, irregularities. We left one movie theater early a year ago, only to read about the arrest of the creepster in the paper a week later from that night in that movie theater. Radar confirmed working.

I also know that in certain circumstances, after trying to ensure my wife and immediate family/friends were safe, I'd make every attempt to stop the situation. I am not worried about my own death, which in some instances is the mindset it would take to terminate the assailant. You only get to live once, and I'd just assume the end be valiant. I can be crazier than the a**hole with the gun, and wouldn't have regrets. It would be my pleasure in certain circumstances to be the one running towards the action and not away from it. Not as a hero, but certainly as a Vigilante. F*ck if someone is going to come in to my home, my church, my family, my space. Wrong pick.

I am a huge proponent of conceal carry. What ever it takes. One gun in the right hands in Orlando also would have ended this and saved casualties.

If you train your body and your mind, you have a better than average chance of survival.

 

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[Vigilante]

There's a true story out of Florida several years back about a girl that was going to be raped by a machete wielding rapist who came into her bungalow through an unlocked screen door.

He was intending to rape her, yielding the machete to her throat when she reached up and forcefully grabbed the BLADE of the machete with her hand, instantly creating a blood bath but taking the attacker by surprise.

He fled. She was crazier than he was. This played out in his mind 100 times, but he never ever pictured the victim doing something so unexpected.

Most people have a crazy switch. Most never want to reach it. I have trained my older kids how to access it, as it can be the difference between life and death in certain circumstances.

If you have middle school to teenage kids, are they prepared to fight to the death if necessary? Have you equipped them? Or do you let them walk out the door innocent, unprepared, and the soft target that can be raped, assaulted, kidnapped, or killed? I can guarantee you the difficulty of the discussions and training is a better outcome than the worst case alternative.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

The first step in have any chance in one of these horrific scenarios is to put your f*ucking smartphone away. I've seen too many times dangerous situations erupt and instead of making a personal threat assessment, the idiot is too busy recording the event, because YouTube views are you know, more important than life itself.

 

[Vigilante]

The first step in have any chance in one of these horrific scenarios is to put your f*ucking smartphone away. I've seen too many times dangerous situations erupt and instead of making a personal threat assessment, the idiot is too busy recording the event, because YouTube views are you know, more important than life itself.

That's true and on a more macro scale. When I talk with people about vigilance, being aware of your surroundings is the key to detecting that something is amiss. The softest targets are the unaware.

Lets put ourselves in NYC, early evening. It's a simple fact that the person walking down by central park has a better chance of threat perception if your head is on a swivel and you are observing and orienting to everything your senses take in. If I put you on that same corridor, smart phone in hand and watching a YouTube video, you don't have the perception of anything other than the sidewalk square in front of you.

The #1 most basic thing you can do for your loved ones is convince them to increase their awareness. Part of the psychological trick of carrying pepper spray, a taser or a personal alarm in hand, or a gun on your hip... is the device itself increases your vigilance. It's NOT enough (@Red) to have a Kubaton in your desk drawer. If it is on your keys, and when you are walking to your car if you make a habit of putting it in hand, the reminder creates awareness. Awareness increases observation and orientation.

It's all about increasing the odds in your favor. Step #1 - get the smart phone out of your face.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Sad day today.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

much easier to control if you don't allow anyone to carry a gun

Yea, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Castro agree with you.

 

[Runum]

Can we talk strategy without politics or religion?

Given the events in France, Orlando, and elsewhere...

And @Vigilante podcast about the OODA loop....

If you were at a public event and were trapped with no escape what would be some strategies for survival?

I was thinking about the people in the restroom, trapped in a room with no escape. They had to know this guy would be coming. Is there time to organize a counter offensive? He thinks he has total control by fear. You and your peeps in the bathroom have the advantage of numbers and element of surprise.

You have been drinking and now running on full adrenaline, sweating and scared.

Thinking about resources available and the imminent threat, some ideas came to mind.

1) The toilet seats could be removed and used as a weapon

2)the stall doors could be used as a shield or ram

3)Your belts could be tied together to make a trip.

You know where he will enter and you have a good idea about his posture. You know if he enters and controls the room you most likely will not survive.

Any other situational ideas are welcome.

Are there any legal, strategic weapons that one could carry into a bar or concert?

Again, I don't want to devolve into rights, gun control, politics, or religion. Please keep responses to strategy and strategic information.

 

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[Vigilante]

Can we talk strategy without politics or religion?

Given the events in France, Orlando, and elsewhere...

And @Vigilante podcast about the OODA loop....

If you were at a public event and were trapped with no escape what would be some strategies for survival?

I was thinking about the people in the restroom, trapped in a room with no escape. They had to know this guy would be coming. Is there time to organize a counter offensive? He thinks he has total control by fear. You and your peeps in the bathroom have the advantage of numbers and element of surprise.

You have been drinking and now running on full adrenaline, sweating and scared.

Thinking about resources available and the imminent threat, some ideas came to mind.

1) The toilet seats could be removed and used as a weapon

2)the stall doors could be used as a shield or ram

3)Your belts could be tied together to make a trip.

You know where he will enter and you have a good idea about his posture. You know if he enters and controls the room you most likely will not survive.

Any other situational ideas are welcome.

Are there any legal, strategic weapons that one could carry into a bar or concert?

Again, I don't want to devolve into rights, gun control, politics, or religion. Please keep responses to strategy and strategic information.

One thing I have been thinking about. There are significant and multiple reasons to contain drinking beyond a drink or two to the privacy of private events. I don't care how tough you are, how trained you are, or how brave you are. If you are impaired by alcohol in public, there's very little upside that can come from it and a whole host of downsides. Your chances of surviving an event like Orlando if you are under the influence of alcohol are significantly diminished.

 

[Red]

While it's easy to postulate on things that people should or shouldn't do in scenarios like Orlando, we tend to forget: people panic. And people who don't immediately panic are standing there trying to wrap their heads around what just happened/is happening. "Was that gunfire? Or fireworks? What the hell is going on? Surely, that can't be gunfire, can it?"

I grew up with a dad who had a Class 3 gun dealers license (FFL), I'm more comfortable around guns than most people I know (once I've cleared it myself). I have friends who are terrified of guns, either due to a bad experience where they were a victim or the unfamiliarity of something potentially deadly & that also makes complete sense. Most people don't default to assessing a situation & the best possible action to take, they default to scared/hide/run. Which is understandable because it's human nature. The whole point of tactical training/special forces training/self-defense training is to override instinct (fear) & simply carry out a plan of action you've practiced (and can do on auto-pilot) that has been determined to be effective.

I don't have the answer to solving this problem. I tend to think the root lies in mental illness more than anything. But I also feel like we're seeing the physical world repercussions being played out to what I see online: people's inability to co-exist with others who have a single differing belief. Open hostility to those that are perceived to be different (and therefore inferior/inhuman) in any way. The absolute lack of ability (refusal) to empathize with anyone on the other side of a screen or even, say, in a different car. Entitlement. If the online interactions I see on a daily basis are indicative of anything going on in the real world, these things are going to keep happening. I hope I'm alert, aware & packing when they do.

Edit: for clarity

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Bodies aren't even cold yet and scumbag politicians are already making it political, as if some type of law could have changed the outcome. Criminals hell-bent on mass murder don't care about your stupid f*n laws. And automatic weapons are already banned.

The worst part of the Vegas attack is there's nothing you can do.

Situational awareness is probably the only thing that might move probabilities. When the shooting first started, I could see how people might think it was fireworks.

 

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[Empires]

Looking at recent and past situations with less casualties, control is taken away from the attacker quickly.

As soon as panic ensues, the attacker is at a major advantage. For example, the Christina Grimmie shooting, right after he attacked her brother tackled him. Preventing more casualties.

Fast action is important in my opinion. Take the control away from him.

In that situation, I feel that they should have used their numbers and surrounding objects to retaliate. By the time you are stuck in the bathroom, you are basically a sitting duck.

 

[Red]

but people made sure to hold on to their pink baloons on the way out... people these days man...

It's really a lowbrow thing to judge any individual placed in this situation, man. You didn't survive it, you weren't there. Maybe lay off the judgement a little? If anything, a balloon might have been a form of comfort in a chaotic situation. Maybe try some lifting up instead of tearing down.

 

[Scot]

Sorry for what happened in Las Vegas, i heard the news..and @MJ DeMarco, i saw the videos and you clearly see people thinking that it's part of the festival (fireworks) but....I don't even know how an armed man can get into an hotel..even more with this one.

Most weapons fit into a standard suitcase, it's actually fairly easy. Casino floors have decent security but they typically don't mess with guests luggage. It's not like the guy was lugging rifle bags and ammo cans up the elevator. This was very premeditated.

At the end of the day, if someone's going to plan something like this out, you're going to lose. The only way to stop it is through intervention prior to the attack.

 

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[LifeTransformer]

Place must have been full of booze > Someone must have had a lighter > Molotov cocktail.

Just a thought.

 

[jon.a]

Get rid of guns if its possible. Like all other countries. 99% of these problems will be solved.

We don't have a gun problem, we have a mental health problem.
And, they're a protected class.

 

[ChickenHawk]

When I worked at a U.S. government facility, I volunteered for a 4-hour course on active-shooter survival. We learned that you have three options: escape, hide, or attack. In the Pulse bathroom, night-club-goers were really limited. They couldn't escape, and they couldn't hide (at least not for long). When you look at it this way, attacking would've been their smartest move.

At work, that survival course ended with active-shooter simulations. One-by-one, each participant was shoved (individually) into a big, unfamiliar room, filled with places to hide or potentially escape. We had to react accordingly when we spotted the "shooter." I attacked. The guy was just a few feet away, and in a real shooter situation, I'm pretty sure that running or hiding would've gotten me "killed." By attacking, I at least stood a chance at survival. It was a really good experience.

Where I worked, they didn't allow firearms, so instead, I kept pepper-spray (the big kind, meant for bear-attacks) in my desk. Now that I work from home, I have a loaded revolver within arm's reach. I'm 99.9% sure I'll never need it, but it's nice to know it's there.

 

[G-Man]

Bodies aren't even cold yet and scumbag politicians are already making it political, as if some type of law could have changed the outcome. Criminals hell-bent on mass murder don't care about your stupid f*n laws. And automatic weapons are already banned.



Situational awareness is probably the only thing that might move probabilities. When the shooting first started, I could see how people might think it was fireworks.

If we had laws against murder, this shit wouldn't happen.

 

[Andy Black]

A decent striking weapon is your mobile phone.

You likely have one on you at all times.

They look completely innocuous in our hands, so you could be up close to someone without them seeing it as a weapon.

A hammer strike holding one is very effective... Try it on your shoulder or arm. Down on the nose would hurt. Down on the collar bone too.

Even your wallet can be used like that.

A rolled up magazine can be used to strike down with too. (An old Karate instructor showed us that one and wiped the smile off my face.)

Don't punch, hammer strike.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

consider breaking through the wall.

This is excellent advice.

Our brains see a wall and we think we're trapped with no escape. But really, what is that wall? A piece of flimsy drywall that anyone can break thru with a swift kick, or even a punch. And as soon as you get a hole in it, you can rip it off very easily.

This is important as well in case of fire. A WALL DOES NOT MEAN YOU'RE TRAPPED -- unless it's brick or concrete! Find the studs, and hit between!

 

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[ChickenHawk]

...much easier to control if you don't allow anyone to carry a gun; regardless of whether they wear a uniform or not.

In France, the victims weren't merely killed. They were tortured and toyed with. Many were castrated and had their eyes gouged out, apparently while still alive. The victims, all unarmed, had virtually no chance of fighting back. The terrorists had guns. The victims did not. Castration is illegal. Eye-gouging is illegal. Killing is illegal. Unfortunately, the terrorists, like most criminals, disregarded all of these laws. Meanwhile, law-abiding people were left defenseless because they followed the rules set by their own government. These days, I very rarely leave my home unarmed, and I'm very thankful to live in a country where the right to self-defense isn't infringed on (much).

 

[Scot]

The worst part of the Vegas attack is there's nothing you can do.

I keep putting myself in the shoes of the victims there, watching the videos, there's nothing but helplessness.

The one thing I will say from watching the videos, run. F*ck laying down. Run and find cover.

 

[Scot]

It's tough to hear... did he tell the cop to give him his gun?

All I heard was "get the F*ck away from me."

Yeah. He literally told the cop to give him a gun. And then said, "I can show you my credentials" which means nothing.

He also snapchatted himself running around too.

Regardless of how much of a tool Bilz is, don't get in the way of officers responding to an active shooter event and don't run around with a gun. Because when police show up looking for a shooter and see someone waving a gun around...

 

[GSF]

Easy for me to write this now but being in that situation would be total panic. But based on the restroom situation, group of you trapped in the restroom with no exit, knowing the shooter is coming, there likely wouldn't be time to get resources (take of doors/ toilet seats etc) for use as weapons or barricading. Everyone would need to quickly agree to charge the shooter and take control, and not to cower and plead. maybe turn the lights off to confuse the shooter as he enters. maybe remove belts and use as weapons. Last resort I guess would be to play dead.

 

[Lex DeVille]

I do know that in almost all public places, I will walk in creating a mental checklist, now by reflex. People, exits, irregularities. We left one movie theater early a year ago, only to read about the arrest of the creepster in the paper a week later from that night in that movie theater. Radar confirmed working.

Anyone who wants to learn more about this can pick up the book The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.

Awareness of gut feelings saves lives.

According to de Becker it's because of micro cues our lizard brain picks up on that our conscious mind doesn't.

People who pay attention to those signals often avoid bad situations before they happen.

 

[happybhoy]

Anyone who wants to learn more about this can pick up the book The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.

Awareness of gut feelings saves lives.

According to de Becker it's because of micro cues our lizard brain picks up on that our conscious mind doesn't.

People who pay attention to those signals often avoid bad situations before they happen.

I was in Edinburgh the other day enjoying a sandwich for lunch at the foot of the castle.

Every day at 1pm they shoot this huge medieval cannon and I just happened to be sitting at the bottom of the cliff 50m below as they fired it.

The sound was absolutely immense. I felt it. The first thought in my head was BOMB.

It's hard to explain how my mind went, but for a millisecond I went into primal mode and felt like I was super aware of my surroundings, before I remembered the cannon.

My subconscious took over and it just handed me a plan of escape without thinking, it's like it was just stored in there ready to be handed over.

It was totally the lizard brain in action.

 

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[ChickenHawk]

the internet is awash in ads for super bright "tactical flashlights"

I saw an article that mentioned that. In fact, I just bought a little tactical flashlight. Even where guns aren't allowed, you'll be able to keep your flashlight. Blinding strobe light, hey, it will at least startle/temporary disorient someone. If someone in that restroom had a strobe flashlight, they could've even placed it on a sink, facing the door where the guy might come in.
http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/06/12/how-to-respond-to-mass-shootings/

About Orlando, another thing that occurred to me was using the restrooms soap. That stuff is slippery. If they'd slopped a bunch of wet soap on the floor, the guy might've fallen on his a$$, giving them the chance to do something.

One thing my husband and I do now is avoid places that are gun-free zones, since criminals for some reason don't respect those friendly "gun free zone" signs. A couple months ago, I stupidly let my concealed carry expire. Orlando was a grim reminder of why I obtained it in the first place. Needless to say, I've already submitted an application to have it renewed.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

It would be my pleasure in certain circumstances to be the one running towards the action and not away from it. Not as a hero, but certainly as a Vigilante. F*ck if someone is going to come in to my home, my church, my family, my space. Wrong pick.

Most people have a crazy switch. Most never want to reach it.

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

Those assholes better know how to handle a rifle in close quarter combat.

My blood is boiling right now just from thinking about the recent and past happenings.


We all behave normal and keep our cool in our everyday little confrontations.

But when somebody points a barrel at your fellow women and men...

...it's time to go berzerk.


BECOME A CHIMP.

NO HESITATION. NO POLITICAL CORRECTNESS. NO MERCY.


Not the right time to think about a "honorable" fight.

Not the right time to think at all.


Stay away from the muzzle, kick his balls, gouge his eyes out, rip off an ear,
grab the head and smack it repeatedly against a hard surface.


Make a mess! Literally.


If you have the chance, and if you know you can,

DO WHAT HAS TO BE DONE.


Let out your inner animal, get ugly.


(F*ck, I have to calm down somehow...time for some deadlifts)

criminals for some reason don't respect those friendly "gun free zone" signs.

Yeah strange, they don't try this shit in texas at all.

Could they be just...cowards?

Naaaaaw.

 

[GSF]

Quoting this from a marine corps weapon instructor on how you can survive an active shooter- https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-survive-a-shooting-massacre-or-terrorist-attack-in-a-city

"A better example comes from the recent attack aboard a train between France and Belgium. There, a terrorist opened fire on a train wounding a few of the passengers. Onboard the train were National Guard Specialist Alek Skarlatos, a recent Afghanistan veteran, Airman 1st Class Spencer Stone, along with a civilian friend Anthony Sadler. They earned international praise for stopping nothing less than a full on terrorist gunman in the middle of what amounted to a holiday vacation.

“My friend Alek (Skarlatos) yells, 'Get him,' so my friend Spencer (Stone) immediately gets up to charge the guy, followed by Alek, then myself," Anthony Sadler said in an interview with CNN.

Stone received injuries during the fight between the Moroccan born gunman, armed with an AK-47 rifle, a pistol, several clips of ammunition and a knife. The Americans wrestled him to the ground after he opened fire. In the end, he was hog tied and, though one of the heroes received superficial injuries, no one, not even the shooter, was killed. No better example currently exists for the argument that active defense is necessary in ending the threat posed by an active shooter or terrorist.

While both of these events center around veterans who placed themselves in harm's way while in civilian roles, what they did isn't something that requires one to be a military person to do. In these specific cases, it was just people who believed they could control the situation, who knew how to react to danger, and who were, at least instinctively aware that the collective's survival was most ensured by the group fighting back."

"Freeze is a common response to panic educing situations. For many, it will be the default response. There is a saying, made most famous by the United States Navy SEALs, but common throughout the United States armed forces: "One doesn't rise to the occasion, but falls back to their training." This means that if a person is not trained, or have not prepared themselves to recognize and respond to a stressful situation, they will likely fail in that situation."

"students are encouraged to use "weapons of opportunity" or "improvised weapons" in their own defense. "Weapon of opportunity" is a term used from the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program and other self-defense programs, which basically means any common place item which can be used a weapon. The Marines train to fight, in the last resort, with sticks, rocks, and anything else which may be available to them. For a classroom or office setting, this translates to books, staplers, tape depressors, and even chairs being used as throwing objects or even blunt force items. It is also advised to keep on hand pepper spray and a very good improvised weapon is also the fire extinguisher. The cloud is both stunning and disorienting, and the canister itself is an extremely blunt object which can be both deadly and easily used as a club. The fact that any good classroom or office should have fire extinguishers available anyway, makes this one of the best self-defense tools for this question.'

Another good read http://www.artofmanliness.com/2015/11/30/what-to-do-in-an-active-shooter-situation/

 

[MJ DeMarco]

students are encouraged to use "weapons of opportunity" or "improvised weapons" in their own defense.

Definitely a good exercise to look around your environment once in awhile and identify such "weapons of opportunity" -- as I'm sitting in my office right now there are so many things that could be used to maliciously hurt someone...

a) Pencils
b) My chair
c) My computer monitor
d) A 5lb dumbell sitting on the floor
e) A stone drink coaster
f) A plate
g) A fork

In any situation, there's usually several things that can be turned into a weapon.

The problem is in these situations we don't know we're in mortal danger until its too late. Unless these poor folks actually saw this guy killing people, they probably thought it was going to be OK. We tend to look at the rosy side of the picture, at least until its put in front of our face. And once it gets to our perceptual stage, it could be too late.