I've got to fire my brother.

[Vigilante]

For those that read this later...

Step 1. Don't hire friends or family, for anything from real estate representation to employment

Step 2. If you ever doubt this, refer to step 1

 

[Vigilante]

There's an entire universe out there of people that want to work for a paycheck.

There are an estimated 7.2 billion people in the world.

7,200,000,000

Out of that,

7,199,999,990 of them you could fire without worrying too much about it if you had to.

10 out of the 7,200,000,000 people you could employ would keep you up at night if you had to fire them.

10 people on the list of people you would never want to have to fire.

And you are seriously wondering if you should hire someone from that list of 10 people

instead of just picking one of the other 7,199,999,990 people that are available?

What am I missing here? Why would you EVER consider hiring one of the 10 people in the entire world that you would be traumatized to fire?

Business is business. Don't complicate what doesn't need to be complicated.

 

[Vigilante]

I have several of these in my rear view window.

I hired a great friend to be my stock broker. The stock market hit the shit. My broker was apathetic. He's no longer my broker. That caused him to no longer be a close friend.

I have several of these examples. It almost always ends poorly. It almost always ends with hard feelings. It almost always ends ugly.

Play for the 7,199,999,990 and take your family and friends out for dinner.

 

[Vigilante]

I follow Gary Vaynerchuk a lot. He hires a lot of people in his family.
And he said in his book [HASHTAG]#Askgaryvee[/HASHTAG] that he never keeps them in power position unless they have the skill. Every member in his family gets a position that they are good at AND also aligns with his/her long term goals.

And a lot of big companies are built by brothers. Stripe (Collison brothers), Zip2 (Musk brothers), Vayner Media (Vayner brothers). I know its more like partnership, but what do you think about that?

I think

Step 1. Don't hire friends or family, for anything from real estate representation to employment

Step 2. If you ever doubt this, refer to step 1

 

[Vigilante]

Today of all days my Mum called me this morning to tell me that my brother wouldn't be in today

This is part of the problem.

 

[Paul David]

I was going to go into detail about this but the long and short of it is i have 4 staff members including myself and i've got a cash flow problem and some serious debt issues with my business.

Currently i've got £55,000 worth of stock, a £50,000 overdraft which im £45,000 into and i've got a £50,000 loan which i only took out in February this year. There's a £35,000 hole.

My brother isn't my best worker, he suffers from depression and anxiety. He doesn't go out or socialise however from a business point of view it makes sense for him to go. I made this decision last night. Today of all days my Mum called me this morning to tell me that my brother wouldn't be in today as he was feeling particular anxious and that he would do his customer services work from Home.

I know what i've still got to do. It hasn't stopped me from crying my eyes out for the last hour though at the thought of telling him. He's my little brother (21). He looks up to me. And now i've got to bring this on him whilst he's got other issues.

I wish i could take a pay cut to cover his wages but I've got too many overheads to pay for and can't.

I've been in business for 16 years now and it's hard man. It keeps my knocking me down and in the past i keep getting up but lately it's getting harder. I'm beginning to lose faith in myself i really am. I know every decision i've made in those years has led me to this point and i will get through this and learn from my mistakes but today is a day in business which is absolutely shit. (sorry for language)

 

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[jpanarra]

I can't imagine this struggle. My dad had his own tattoo business where he had a cousin come and work for him. But due to family relations,;he tried to take advantage of the situation; coming in late, not doing the assigned clean-up, etc. One morning my dad just flat out fired him when he came in late... told him to go find another parlor and learn how to work first before coming in. My dad passed away last summer in a car accident, but my cousin came to me after and said that was the best thing that happened to him because since it was someone he knew and looked up to he was able to pivot and learn how to work harder...

So you firing him might be the best thing for your brother... you're just giving him a lesson is how I see it.. He might come back with some more experience and respect for you.

DO what you think is right

 

[biophase]

When you have to fire employees because business is not going well, it's usually the fault of the owner. The fact that you need to let go of 2 people is really all you need to think about. As the owner of the business, it is your responsibility to keep them paid. I really now think that this thread should be about how you need help turning around your business.

My employee runs my day to day operations. If sales are not coming through the door, she will have less and less to do. If it gets to the point where I need to fire her, it is my fault. I have failed her as a boss and business owner. She has no say on how we get sales.

Of course, I would fire her if I had to. But there's no way I would be thinking that it was her fault. Your brother's employee role here doesn't influence sales.

This is why I'm not really buying into this issue of your brother anymore.

 

[eliquid]

If it is bothering you so much about letting your little brother go, why don't you fire one of the other guys and show your brother if he doesn't step up, the same is coming for him.

Have you even given him an opportunity to step up yet, or do you allow him to be in a downer depressive mood this whole time he has been employed and let him coast by in life with no real push? Real leaders help improve people...

Sounds like you have been an enabler. If so, its as much your fault as his and your mom's possibly ( she did call in for him ).

Most times if you have finally saw you are at the point to having let 1 person go in your business for cashflow reasons, you really prob actually need to let 2 or 3 go in reality.

 

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[Paul David]

so...when are you going to fire him?

A letter yesterday from HMRC regarding a final warning for outstanding Corporation Tax has served as a timely reminder of the gravity of the situation.

I'm giving my brother his one week notice tomorrow AND one other employee. Four down to two. It's not ideal but for starters of an evening i'll replace the time i spend on twitter and other procrastination apps with replying to Ebay, Amazon and customer services on my mobile so there's less to do the next day. The one member of staff i have left will go back to the role he started in the company - packing and despatching orders split between customer service work.

I'll crack on with listing products we've had sitting there for months, sending more items to Amazon FBA. Anything that will improve the bottom line.

The anger with myself has now been replaced with a determination to a) Do what's needed to recover and b) serve as a lesson/reminder to never EVER get in this position again.

 

[Paul David]

*UPDATE*

So it's nearly 2 months now since our last order was seized by customs. If i'm honest these last two months have been an absolute disaster but i've reached the F*ck it point now. Not in the context of whether my business dies or survives but i'm referring to the F*ck it i don't care what else get's thrown at me i'll keep coming back. I'll get back up, climb over the issue, learn from the experience and move forward.

After Walter Hay verified that the new suppliers in the far east i were dealing with were factories and not trading companies i placed an order for 30 days worth of stock from both, at the same time to test quality.

That was on February 14th. It's now 18th March and we've not received any stock.
Sales in January were £76,000. Sales in February £46,000. Exp March Sales £39,000. Not good at all. We've got zero stock on 80% of our product lines. The best sellers too. F*ck it. Bring it on.

One factory had the goods ready on 9th March. I arranged to ship them via a UK forwarder in order to prevent them going to same UK customs location i've had previous issues with, and also save cost. After 2 days of back and forth the UK shipper couldn't get the required paperwork from the factory, as the goods were arranged EXW instead of FOB. I then got my chinese forwarder to collect them instead.

I woke up this morning and checked my email to see if the tracking has updated with an expected delivery date. Lo and behold there is a shipping exception. I email my Chinese forwarder, the goods are on hold with customs for some reason. Great. F*ck it. Bring it on.

On Thursday i was doing my weekly P&L report and noticed our Ebay invoice was high in february compared to January when we had more sales. After further inspection i found that we had been charged £950.00 in picture fees for some Ebay Italy listings. £1.00 for each listing. I don't pay any listing fees and never have done. Spoke to Ebay and they blamed our listing software. I'm now trying to resolve this problem with our software company. The extra £950.00 came out of my bank on Friday. I will be expecting a credit for this from the software company. Couldn't have happened at a worse time. F*ck it. Bring it on.

The UK customs have agreed to release part of the last seized order but they are destroying 900pcs. They were supposed to arrive this week. We sent the paperwork back on last friday to release them and i had not heard anything by Wednesday so i emailed them to see what the hold up was. They still hadn't received the paperwork. I sent it back same day. F*ck it. Bring it on. I've now emailed the signed paperwork and hopefully these goods will be in next week.

On a positive note we've come up with a solution to prevent most stock lines running out in future and enabling us to buy more QTY of less SKU's which the factories like. This will be resolved on our next order. At the moment though until these two 30 day stock orders come in i can't even afford to pay the deposit on that next order.

The sales were making at moment are not even covering outgoings. I need at least one of these orders to arrive next week.

This is what real life as a entrepreneur is like at times. I'm that guy in the movies at the moment, the one who's on a boat in a storm that's getting battered by wave after wave. Well bring on the next F*cking wave. I'll ride it and continue on with my journey to calmer waters. Those of you that are already there, get me a beer ready.

 

[Get Right]

I'm beginning to lose faith in myself i really am

Is this the problem or is it your brother? Be damn sure you know which one before you do something you might regret...

 

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[Paul David]

I think a lot of people are missing my point. I'm sorry if it came across as if I was asking advice on firing my brother - I wasn't.

I wrote the post for people who are still unsure as to how hard it can be in business especially if you employ family and things aren't going to well.

My brothers personal background was highlighted as it added to the difficulty of the situation.

The most important thing I need to do at the moment is sort out what's going wrong in the business. My brother doesn't have a mortgage and two children to support - I do.

I've been self employed since I left school 16 years ago, I've never had anyone as a boss and im not about to start.

I must simply do whatever it takes regardless.

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[Paul David]

When you have to fire employees because business is not going well, it's usually the fault of the owner. The fact that you need to let go of 2 people is really all you need to think about. As the owner of the business, it is your responsibility to keep them paid. I really now think that this thread should be about how you need help turning around your business.

My employee runs my day to day operations. If sales are not coming through the door, she will have less and less to do. If it gets to the point where I need to fire her, it is my fault. I have failed her as a boss and business owner. She has no say on how we get sales.

Of course, I would fire her if I had to. But there's no way I would be thinking that it was her fault. Your brother's employee role here doesn't influence sales.

This is why I'm not really buying into this issue of your brother anymore.

Absolutely spot on. I couldn't agree more.

That's why I made the point in my original post that I felt like I was losing faith in myself. It's 100% my fault why my business is in this position.

I'm thankful for advice I've received but a lot is focusing on my brothers issues. I highlighted those to emphasize that it was a more difficult decision than usual.

Yesterday I informed my other 'non related' employee that he was on a weeks notice. In the past I've only ever had to do this to staff who weren't very good. This particular employee is great. I couldn't fault anything about him and it's not a good day when my business loses someone like that.

I've also cancelled all non essential expenses like water machine, terapeak eBay software.

I've updated my profit and loss so I know exactly to the nearest penny what's coming in and going out. I will be looking at this constantly.

Now it's time to look into the stock situation and reduce non selling lines, get stock turning around. I've already got 22 different products ready today to be collected by Ups for Amazon fba.

As you rightly pointed out @biophase this thread should now be about how I turn this business around. And I will.


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[Bellini]

Maybe you can stop paying him, but still keep him around. Who knows, he may still want to help you after all.

↑ This ↑


If at all possible, you can spare him the rejection by telling him that your business is in trouble and you are upset because you won't be able to pay him, but you would love to have him around 'if' he wants to hang out and help until he finds another job. That way he won't feel like it's personal.

I think you can slide through this without ever having to use the terms "I have to fire you" or "I have to let you go". You might not need to say that at all. Just keep the focus on the fact that you can't pay him anymore. Just my opinion.

Good luck.

 

[biophase]

Can you turn him into an income producing employee? Have him do social media, promotions, marketing... something that brings in money to the bottom line.

 

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[Paul David]

So it's been more than 3 months since I wrote this post and it's time to update on the current situation.

Firstly my brother is still working for me but being paid by my Father. He's back doing the packing which he previously wasn't happy doing but has actually got his head down and got on with the job.

I've also got some excel macros developed by someone in Eastern Europe which cost me less than $200 but these spreadsheets have saved me that much time I would no longer require the employee I let go in September anyway.

One of the macros developed was in relation to monitoring our dead and slow moving stock items and now on a monthly basis I take action on this.

I've sent around 600 FBA listings to Amazon UK and these have now started to sell.

I was dreading my yearly visit to the accountants in December as I knew they would highlight the poor trading year I'd had and this proved to be the case. I was told (and I already knew) I could not afford another year like before and I needed to increase profits asap.

For the first time ever I'm in a position where I can actually concentrate all of my time on taking action in things which directly drive profit to the bottom line but herein lies the next obstacle I need to get over.

Cashflow.

I'm still experiencing issues of better selling products running out of stock because I don't have enough cash to replenish them quick enough. Our suppliers in Far East won't offer credit and due to the poor financials on our last yearly accounts no bank is going to lend me anymore money.

I also need to send our product lines to other Amazon sites in Europe and USA but I can't afford to buy the stock.

I'm no longer losing money anymore but I'm not really making it either if I factored my brothers salary into it. Its just covering outgoings. It's an improvement on 3 months ago and progress has been made but I'm now at another crossroads.

I can't afford to discontinue current selling lines to find more lucrative items. I don't have the cash to ensure current lines don't sell out (even though i can produce a report in two minutes telling me exactly how many I need to order) because I don't have enough cash and I don't have enough cash to buy the new products for other channels which will bring in more profits.

The only solution I can think of is to ask my Father to mortgage one of his properties and either invest into my business as a form of partner of salary or provide it in the form of a loan where I pay back the mortgage cost.

It's actually the last thing I wanted to do as I hate asking for help from anyone and I feel bad enough that he's already paying my brothers wages.

From a £150k investment I'd estimate to make approximately £35k a month. Easily enough to cover the cost of a mortgage and make a good profit.

If I don't get a cash injection I'm simply going to drift along probably increasing profits here and there but not by enough to be anywhere happy with. I'll have A basic lifestyle business which is one Amazon suspension away or delayed stock arrival away from going under.


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[The-J]

For those that read this later...

Step 1. Don't hire friends or family, for anything from real estate representation to employment

Step 2. If you ever doubt this, refer to step 1

I hired a sibling in-law to help do some work for me. The work was good, but I'll never do it again.

I would love to hire family, I really would. But money gets in the way of the family bond, unless the business IS the family lifeblood. And even then, it creates problems. Just watch Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares for proof of this. Siblings and parents and children fighting each other over what? Selling food?

It's a dream of mine to have my younger siblings do some work for me over a summer and allow them to be somewhat self sufficient. Maybe a limited time makes it a little better. But the more I think about it, the more I think that it would be a giant liability on my part, sour my relationship with my parents, and ultimately I'd come out being the dick. I don't want that.

 

[G-Man]

I've had to fire a lot of people. On one occasion, I had to fire about 20 perfectly good people because the company was so mismanaged it was losing money and couldn't sustain the payroll. I constantly reminded myself: "No matter what, these people are out of a job. My only choice is if the rest of us end up broke with them."

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

Why is your business in debt?

Is it headed downhill? Can you turn things around? Is it worth operating vs getting a job?

Answering those questions is likely more important than getting advice on firing your brother. With that said, giving a family member bad news sucks. Best of luck man.

 

[biophase]

It varies depending on SKU and supplier but can be anywhere from 1 week to 6 weeks. Then when it comes back into stock it takes another 7-10 days for sales to start kicking back in.

We're currently running at around 14% of total value of stock with no sales in last 60 days which i'm reducing price on to discontinue. I have some excellent spreadsheets now which provide a complete oversight of Stock within minutes. I know exactly how many days since i last sold a particular SKU, it's value.

I would start working on the ones with 1 week of out of stock. Bridge the gap on those to keep sales coming. Use the new revenue generated from those sales in the 2 new weeks of being in stock to slowly purchase inventory for the next least timeframe of out of stock items.

Slowly chip away at it.

I would not ask your dad to get a mortgage. Sounds like you may just need a small loan to get the ball rolling.

 

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[TonyStark]

Maybe you can stop paying him, but still keep him around. Who knows, he may still want to help you after all.

 

[nradam123]

Bro, one of my goals is to hire my brother. It is one of the reasons why I am working my a$$ off.

Dude, are you sure that its your brothers problem?

Anyway, maybe this can be an action plan -
1) Tell him that he is getting really anxious and he is only 21. And you care for him and you want him to attempt working in a different company to get a better idea about the world (Or something like that).
2) Tell him to find a job he loves. Setup interviews for him, do whatever you can to find a job for him.
3) Don't fire him until he gets a job.
4) After that let him go.

I dont think you should even tell that he is fired. Just let him "change" for his own good. He is only 21 anyway, he has nothing to lose.

And YOU -> Fix your business man. Thats the thing you should worry about. Do whatever it takes to make it profitable, if its a sinking ship look for more opportunities.
Remember, fastlaners are made on the redline.

This is going to be the biggest learning experience of your life.

PS: Do let us know what happened, allright.

 

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[BellaPippin]

See if you can take a softer approach, can you put it in the perspective of a... I think you need to take a break from this particular business and find one that helps you socialize more, be in a new context etc. In the meantime (let him know) that would help you lower costs. Have him know he will be also helping you that way. win-win. Which is not a lie.

From what you say the "break-up" would also benefit him as he needs to break vicious cycles. He probably doesn't socialize because he is too comfortable.

It's hard not to think you sort of HAVE to help him but maybe that push out of his comfort zone is what he needs. In a new context he might even know positive people to build relationships with that help him deal with his anxiety. See the positive in it and try to see it with those lenses rather than "I'm just cutting him off and leaving him out to dry" which doesn't even seem accurate.

Also he's 21! He has a lot to learn and one of those things is to discover that empowering feeling that he can take care of himself.

 

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[Mikkel]

Cmon man :/

This is of concern to me as well. I am going to get my bro to join me no matter what. Let me know sme more details about your opinion so that I can learn and adapt.

What is the best thing that can happen by letting him join your company? Probably get rich together, which would be fantastic.

What is the worst thing that could happen, that is plausible? He does not hold his end of the bargain and therefore begins to ruin your business.

Is it really worth your relationship with your family to have them working for you? Do what you'd like, but I wouldn't risk my relationship with people I care about.

Kobe Bryant wrote a letter to his younger self saying that he wish he didn't hire his family to be his agents. That he wishes he didn't give his family all the gifts that they wanted, because in the end it was actually killing their dreams. Enable your family to follow their own dreams, don't just hand things to them; they will never grow as a person.

 

[Jon L]

I've been where your brother is. He knows he's not performing well, and its eating him up. For me, I wished I'd been fired 6 years before I actually was. He'll land on his feet eventually. He's stronger than you think.

The best way, I think, to tell him is to review where your business stands financially, and where his performance stands. If he understands that you are about to go out of business unless you let him go, it will be easier on your relationship.

 

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[Paul David]

If it is bothering you so much about letting your little brother go, why don't you fire one of the other guys and show your brother if he doesn't step up, the same is coming for him.

Have you even given him an opportunity to step up yet, or do you allow him to be in a downer depressive mood this whole time he has been employed and let him coast by in life with no real push? Real leaders help improve people...

Sounds like you have been an enabler. If so, its as much your fault as his and your mom's possibly ( she did call in for him ).

Most times if you have finally saw you are at the point to having let 1 person go in your business for cashflow reasons, you really prob actually need to let 2 or 3 go in reality.

Yes you're right it would be better if i could let 2 people go but my business can't function with only 2 people unfortunately. The fact that my business is in it's current position is not his fault. He does our customer services for website, Ebay and Amazon. By his nature he's anxious and depressed, he's been diagnosed with it.

From a business point of view and putting family loyalties aside it's him who's got to go unfortunately for the good of the business whether that makes me uncomfortable or not. I've got my own family to look after and bills to pay. He still lives at home with my parents and get's his car paid for by my Dad.
I've obviously let things slip to get to this point and i take full responsibility. Time to step up.

 

[SparksCW]

Anxiety and in customer services?? Craziness.

I used to work for my dad, the business was struggling for years, I saw a lot of people go. My dad doesn't do the right things, blames everyone else and expects business to increase without doing anything.

A few months ago it started getting really bad and I decided I could no longer work there so I handed my notice in. I spun it that I was doing him a favour but in reality I just wanted out.

I've learnt to never work with family and friends, ironically I have a good friend working for me now, and I would rather it wasn't the case so I do know your feeling, but honestly family and work don't get on. I promoted someone up to take over my job at my dads business and he employed his cousin as an apprentice, I told him not to, and low and behold he had loads of issues, the guy wasn't interested enough, didn't work hard enough and his mum got involved too many times!! He was told to jog on just before I left.

My business is doing well but everything I'm doing is cash heavy and I do worry about paying for a friend if times get tough. But ultimately it's a business not a charity....

My dad has also previously employed various other family members (nephews etc) and every time it was a disaster.

You know what to do, just get it done and keep moving. Don't lie to him, just say you simply can't afford him and it's easier to pick up on his job rather than someone elses. I'm sure he'll understand (eventually). It sounds like you're in ecommerce as well like me?

 

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[OldFaithful]

I'd like to add that, in my opinion, it seems a bit unfair to consider an employee's personal life (residence choice/debt/family obligations/bills/etc) in the decision over whom to fire. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the only thing that matters is whether the employee is getting the job done, doing it well and being a positive contribution to the company culture. Balance that with the net value their position adds to the bottom line and the decision over whom to fire should be much more clear.

Is it fair to fire employee "A" instead of employee "B" just because "A" has no kids while "B" has 6 rug rats? Does it matter that employee "C" has chosen to live at his/her parent's home or in an apartment or in a van down by the river, vs employee "D" that has a McMansion and a huge mortgage payment? If these things matter, aren't we judging the employee's personal decisions and not their work performance/behavior/value?

Just my 0.02

 

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[Paul David]

Update: after speaking to my Father today he told me that he was prepared to pay my brothers wages so he wouldn't be out of a job.

He's concerned that hearing he had no job would set him back months In terms of anxiety issues etc.

My father isn't short of money, he's a paper millionaire so the money isn't really an issue for him. Plus I can't really complain about having a free full time worker.

My father also offered to remortgage one of his properties if I was in need of cash. I declined this offer as I need to reduce overheads and build again from the bottom before adding more money into the business.

So that just leaves me with having to tell one employee tomorrow (who's recently become a father for 3rd time) that he's on a weeks notice.

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