Let's Talk About Entrepreneurial Depression

[AgainstAllOdds]

It's a tough topic, but one that should not be taboo to talk about.

If you choose the life of an entrepreneur, there's one thing you need to accept that's not in almost any business book: Your probability of being depressed, stressed, and anxious skyrockets.

"Depression was the highest-reported reported condition, being present in 30% of all entrepreneurs. ADHD (29%) and anxiety problems (27%) followed close by. That’s a dramatically higher percentage than the US population at large, where only about 7% identify as depressed."

You're 4x more likely to be depressed at some point if you choose the "fastlane" path. To get through the dark times, you have to be mentally strong and prepared. You also have to acknowledge that this is something that can happen, and be ready to get help when you need it.

The life of an entrepreneur is not easy. Socially, you're considered an outcast by family members and friends that all have slowlane jobs. Financially, you're continuously on the brink of ruin until you get something going. Ego-wise, you're bouncing between feeling like a god and felling like a bum. I've been there, I know. I'm still there every once in awhile.

It's hard, and something you need to prepare for.

In my life, I'm currently struggling with a best friend that's become an alcoholic - and on the inside it's tearing me apart. He couldn't handle the stress and turned to drinking. As his numbers didn't meet with his time expectations, that led to more drinking and more depression, and more drinking again. He's on a downward spiral and we're doing our best to make help him, making sure he doesn't do anything stupid, but bit by bit he's losing a part of himself each day.

It's incredibly hard to see, but I get it.

I've personally had suicidal thoughts, and know a good number of entrepreneurs that were in a similar boat. Start of 2017 I had a paper net worth over a million at 25. End of 2017, I had my money stolen by a factory, and went broke. When I found out I lost it all, I spent the night drinking a fifth by myself in a Malaysian nightclub wondering if I should end it. The next day I woke up, realized I loved myself, and started questioning why I'd ever think that. So I bought a ticket to a village in Thailand and did Muay Thai every day until I got my mind right. I caught my depression before it could catch me.

This is something that you need to prepare for. For a lot of you ambitious folks, it's something that comes with the territory. Don't believe me?

Here are quotes from a few top entrepreneurs:

“First and foremost, a start-up puts you on an emotional rollercoaster unlike anything you have ever experienced. You flip rapidly from day-to-day — one where you are euphorically convinced you are going to own the world, to a day in which doom seems only weeks away and you feel completely ruined, and back again. Over and over and over. And I’m talking about what happens to stable entrepreneurs. There is so much uncertainty and so much risk around practically everything you are doing. The level of stress that you’re under generally will magnify things incredible highs and unbelievable lows at whiplash speed and huge magnitude.” - Marc Andreesen

“Running a start-up is like chewing glass and staring into the abyss. After a while, you stop staring, but the glass chewing never ends.” - Elon Musk

“Surely there have been times when you’ve been sad. Perhaps a loved one has abandoned you or a plan has gone horribly awry. Your face falls. Perhaps you cry. You feel worthless. You wonder whether it’s worth going on. Everything you think about seems bleak — the things you’ve done, the things you hope to do, the people around you. You want to lie in bed and keep the lights off. Depressed mood is like that, only it doesn’t come for any reason and it doesn’t go for any either. Go outside and get some fresh air or cuddle with a loved one and you don’t feel any better, only more upset at being unable to feel the joy that everyone else seems to feel. Everything gets colored by the sadness.” - Aaron Swartz, the founder of Reddit who later sadly killed himself .

“If you ask a founder how her startup is going, the answer is almost always some version of “Great!”

There is a huge amount of pressure as a founder to never show weakness and to be the cheerleader in all internal and external situations. The world can be falling down around you — and most of the time when you’re running a company, it is — and you have to be the strong, confident, and optimistic. Failing is terrifying, and so is looking stupid.

Founders end up with a lot of weight on their shoulders — their employees and their families, their customers, their investors, etc. Founders usually feel a responsibility to make everyone happy, even though interests are often opposed. And it’s lonely in a way that’s difficult to explain, even with a cofounder (one of the things that works about organizations like Y Combinator is that you have a peer group you can lean on for support).

So a lot of founders end up pretty depressed at one point or another, and they generally don’t talk to anyone about it. Often companies don’t survive these dark times.” - Sam Altman from Y-Combinator

“I have seen CEOs try to cope with the stress by drinking heavily, checking out, and even quitting. In each case, the CEO has a marvellous rationalization why it was OK for him to punk out or quit, but none them will ever be great CEOs. Great CEOs face the pain. They deal with the sleepless nights, the cold sweat, and what my friend the great Alfred Chuang (legendary founder and CEO of BEA Systems) calls “the torture.” Whenever I meet a successful CEO, I ask them how they did it. Mediocre CEOs point to their brilliant strategic moves or their intuitive business sense or a variety of other self-congratulatory explanations. The great CEOs tend to be remarkably consistent in their answers. They all say: “I didn’t quit.” - Ben Horowitz

This is something that a lot of ambitious people go through.

And it's not something you should be ashamed of, if it hits you too. However, it is something that you need to acknowledge exists as a risk, and determine if you have the mental fortitude to jump into entrepreneurship and the fastlane.

You also need a plan to deal with the stress, sadness, and darkness if it comes.

For me, things that really help are:

• Working out. It's a great stress relief that releases endorphins and helps you feel better little by little.
• Having friends that are going through or have gone through the same struggle. This forum is amazing with the wealth of entrepreneurial experiences. It's nice to know that you're not alone and not feel as isolated. Meet these people in real life to make it more real.
• Staying away from substances when I'm sad or stressed. If I'm feeling down, I stay away from anything that can be a crutch. There's very little in life that three nights of sleep can't fix. Stay away from alcohol, drugs, and other substances when you're feeling down. They won't help you, just make matters worse.
• Things that I'm proud of and can point at. Some of my proudest accomplishments are people that I've helped. When you're feeling good, consider going out and helping others. Consider this your mental insurance policy when you're feeling down. When you're down, just think of the people you've helped, and use that as motivation to go forward.

For yourself, make sure you have your own plan if things go bad. And remember: your mental health is more important than any dollar you make. Your identity isn't money, or how your business is doing. Those are just things that you happen to do.

Any thoughts?

 

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[The-J]

Let's look at it, shall we:

• You're alone a lot of the time, and when you're not alone, you're with people (employees, clients, etc) who you can't really speak to on a deep level. Super isolating.
• Most people don't understand what you do or why you do it, making it difficult to talk with old friends and family about it. Even more isolating.
• Your entrepreneur friends are busy, as you are, leaving you with not a lot of time to speak with them regularly. Extremely isolating.
• Your rewards don't necessarily correlate to your hard work, especially in the beginning. It can feel like a grind and the grind can depress you.
• You take risks that most people won't take and the result is unknown.
• Surprises happen a LOT, some of which can destroy your whole business, that fear is always there
• When the rewards come in, they're REALLY rewarding (even if they're not nominally great), so the highs are really high but the lows are really low. This is kind of manic-depressive.
• You do a LOT of waiting. Waiting for product, waiting for payment, waiting for sales, waiting for bills, waiting all the time. The anxiety is serious.
• When you finally DO succeed on some level, others won't share in your success like you will as they don't know the full story.

A person whose sense of personal utility is based on their moods and feelings of contentment should NEVER start on an entrepreneurial road, at least not without a deep purpose, because the process will destroy them.

However, a person who really believes in what they're doing and who feels a draw to a self-reliant enterprising lifestyle can't do anything else. It's our curse, our cross to bear, more than anything else in the world. More of us should invest in therapy even if there's nothing really wrong.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

Depression is made up bullshit by people who enjoy being victims and anyone who “has” it is just being lazy in blaming their problems on something they call “depression”. It’s a nice scapegoat.

Make more friends, date cute girls, get in shape, make more money, kick more a$$, live a better life, be better than most people, you’ll wonder where your silly depression went.

Here's a list of people that likely were better looking than you, made more money than you, kicked more a$$ than you, and were "better" than most people. Their "silly depression" sadly didn't go away: List of suicides in the 21st century - Wikipedia

The mind is fragile.

Depression isn't something that can always be solved by success. @MTF pointed out earlier how the worst kind of depression can come from individuals that lack fulfillment from success.

In the real world, anyone can suffer from depression. Even someone like Justin Bieber who's slept with more super models than girls you've talked to has had depression.

One of the better recent examples of someone that came out with depression is Kevin Love:

This guy crosses off all the criteria on your list in the 99th percentile.

• He has access to more people that want to be friends with him than most of us ever will.
• He dates Kate Bock.
• Is in better shape than anyone else.
• He makes more money than almost anyone ever will.
• Has won an NBA Championship - there's not much more a$$ kicking than that.
• Lives a life we can only dream of.
• And is overall "better" at every single aspect of life compared to the average person.

Yet he still struggles with anxiety and depression.

Everyone Is Going Through Something | By Kevin Love

Mental health isn’t just an athlete thing. What you do for a living doesn’t have to define who you are. This is an everyone thing.

www.theplayerstribune.com

@Johnny boy Your attitude might be the correct one for the immediate future, but it's the wrong one completely in life. You're 22. Give it another 5 years. If you have enough friends, you'll start to notice some turning to substance abuse. You'll notice guys that were previously going out every night not going out anymore. You'll notice childhood friends that you thought were invincible "settling" after getting knocked down time and time again.

Everyone has highs. Everyone has lows.

If you have ambition and high hopes, your probability of missing expectations and feeling sad are even higher.

The goal is to escape that sadness, but if it comes, it's not something to be ashamed of, and definitely not "made up victim mentality bullshit".

 

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[biggeemac]

I was at my wits end last weekend. Anxiety definitely had the upper hand. Finally, my wife and I jumped in the car with the dog and headed to a large state park with nice water falls and rivers. All of my anxiety seemed to melt away. Something about getting out into nature helped me. Needless to say.....I am shopping around for a little weekender RV. I think nature may just be the medicine I need.

 

[MTF]

I would also add that the depression because of success can be equally devastating, if perhaps not more, than the depression because of failure.

The biggest problem with this type of depression is that very, very few people will understand a person suffering from it. After all, how can you depressed if you achieved your huge goals and live the life of your dreams?

If you dare to share your struggles with others, often what you'll get at most will be a "look at all those poor people who can barely afford food - they have real problems, you're just a crybaby."

This will only make you feel more guilty that you can't feel happy despite having seemingly all the reasons to do so, and the vicious cycle begins, the abyss sucking you in deeper and deeper as you contemplate how good you have it compared to others and how shitty you feel anyway (been there, done that).

Of course, we can argue that a person who can't afford to feed their family has it worse than a millionaire who lost a sense of purpose in life (First World problems, right?). But if the millionaire suffers from depression or commits suicide because of it (sadly, there are plenty examples of famous wealthy people proving the case), it doesn't make their suffering or death any different - it's still a human being overwhelmed by negative emotions and/or chemical imbalance, regardless of the reasons.

Anyway, I've been on both ends of it (depression from failure and depression from success) and been struggling with this on and off for a couple of years. A few thoughts, mostly for what I'd call "light" depression rather than depression that requires medical assistance:

• Nothing helps as much as the basics: physical activity, good weather, nature, spending time with cool, positive people, healthy time alone for introverts (and some companionship, too, of course) and quality social time for extroverts (and some time alone, too). I rarely feel depressed during the spring and summer and suffer a lot during the fall and winter (this might be associated with seasonal affective disorder, though). One thing that really helps as for the basics is learning how to enjoy the simplest pleasures. If you struggle with that, go on a prolonged fast (find a fasting friend here) and you'll discover how happy a simple meal can make you. Or just grab a chair, sit somewhere out in the sun, and enjoy its warm rays (think of the Latin American culture and how happy these people are even if they have nothing). It sounds cheesy as hell, but if you can't enjoy the simple stuff, you'll always struggle to maintain a sunny disposition.
• You can't define yourself by just one role (like that of an entrepreneur). If the only source of fulfillment in your life comes from your business, you're in for an inevitable bout of depression. It's valuable to have a few different hobbies that share at least some of the characteristics of entrepreneurship (like growth, excitement, challenges, competition, companionship, etc.). These hobbies will bring in some positive emotions to counteract the negative emotions brought by your entrepreneurial role. Sports are IMO the best choice as they provide both mental and physical benefits, but it obviously depends on a person. The goal is to have something to look forward to in your daily or weekly routine. This leads me to the third point...
• Have short-term non-business projects to keep you busy when you're most likely to feel depressed (for example, when you're waiting for something to happen in your business and your hands are tied). Small projects, whether it's DIY stuff, some non-profit work, perhaps a few weeks helping out a family member build a barn or stuff like that help keep your mind busy and ward off negative thoughts. The key word here is "short-term" so that it doesn't feel like a job you can't escape from but just a temporary project with a visible outcome that rewards the struggles.
• Protect your best hours. One of the most enjoyable hours of the day for me are early mornings because that's when it's quiet and when I'm most productive and focused. I recharge my batteries during these early hours. I've found that if for some reason I can't have a peaceful morning, it's likely that the rest of the day won't be peaceful, either, and this can bring negative thoughts. Whatever your best hours are, try to spend them as you want, not as others force you to.
• Don't feel guilty. Don't force yourself to fix it. Last but most definitely not least, acknowledge that you feel bad and feel okay not trying to fix it right away. I like to think of it as a period of reflection, often necessary to find a new direction in life. Instead of feeling guilty that you're depressed or trying to find a way to radiate with positivity once again, just accept that you might not be at your best right now and that it's okay.

 

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[MTEE1985]

I cannot stress enough: do not internalize it.

Your thoughts will lie to you and can take you down a dangerous path. Find a counselor, a friend, pm somebody on this forum. You are not alone going through it and please don’t try to tackle it alone.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

I was at my wits end last weekend. Anxiety definitely had the upper hand. Finally, my wife and I jumped in the car with the dog and headed to a large state park with nice water falls and rivers. All of my anxiety seemed to melt away. Something about getting out into nature helped me. Needless to say.....I am shopping around for a little weekender RV. I think nature may just be the medicine I need.

That's a great point.

The Japanese have a word for this "Shinrin-yoku", which means: “forest bathing”.

There's a lot of data that supports being in nature as a form of therapy. Worth trying and incorporating into your regular routine.

 

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[biophase]

That's a great point.

The Japanese have a word for this "Shinrin-yoku", which means: “forest bathing”.

There's a lot of data that supports being in nature as a form of therapy. Worth trying and incorporating into your regular routine.

So, I've never had any entrepreneurial depression during my 12 years in business so far. But the interesting about this part of the post is that I spend alot of time in the trees. I mountain bike almost daily but I'm now seeing the trees through the forest more.

When I did an ayahuasca ceremony last year, the shaman (who didn't know anything about me) said that I had a very strong Aspen tree aura around me. He said that they were my protector trees.

I happen to spend my summers around the largest aspen grove in the state of Colorado. In fact, just a few days ago, I actually walked up and hugged an aspen tree for like a minute. I don't just cruise right through the forest now, but I stop and pay attention, look at leaves, roots and dirt.

I don't know if it's all woo woo stuff, but it's seeming to all come together or be a massive coincidence in the past few years.

 

[Andy Black]

Good for you bringing this up @AgainstAllOdds.

I too have a friend who was (is?) suffering with alcoholism. He seems to have turned a corner and I hope your friend does too.

I’ve also been to a therapist/counselor recently as I was getting overwhelmed with what life’s thrown at me in the last few years. Overwhelm is not good.

Our mental and emotional health is probably more important than anything else. If we lose the will then everything else goes with it.

I was talking to a friend just yesterday who’s new to working for himself. I explained that it’s hard, that there’s ups and downs as you go along, and that you’ve got to take care of yourself.

I also told him that it doesn’t get easier, but you get stronger. I’ll add the caveat that I don’t mean we have to be “strong” all the time. I urge anyone who’s having problems to speak to someone. Speak to professionals too ... they can help us see the wood for the trees.

 

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[Scot]

@AgainstAllOdds thank you for writing this and putting it out there on the forum. I touched on it briefly in my thread The Desert of Desertion is real... and I'm in it.

But the Desert of Desertion can quickly turn into straight depression. And honestly, I'm there.

We all know that finances are usually the biggest trigger for this sort of thing, in our world. We're always flirting with the edge of financial collapse. And it gets compounded when it affects "the real world", i.e. your family.

Having a newborn, it really weighs on me.
"If the business collapses, will all of these credit cards come after me personally?"
"Are we going to have to move out of a house into an apartment?"
"Is it fair to her that I'm always thinking about the business, even when I'm home?"

I'd love to say I've found some way to cope and handle the stress and depression, but I haven't. Having a supportive wife, who picks up on my cues helps though. Having friends in the game like @Greg R and the other guys in my mastermind help.

But its something I really need to focus on finding an outlet for. Because the depression leads to lethargy, and lethargy means I don't accomplish things that need to be done.. which only hurts the business and leads to more stress and depression.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

And whatever you do let’s not shame ppl who do feel comfortable, if only for a moment, sharing their feelings on a thread because.. ya know.. for all you know.. one of us might be 3k or $200 away from being homeless and isn’t going to get a therapist any time this year no matter how much they “need” one.

Sheesh.

My point is it’s refreshing to know that it’s a crazy up and down cycle for us all, no matter how much ppl are making.

 

[million$$$smile]

Depression is made up bullshit by people who enjoy being victims and anyone who “has” it is just being lazy in blaming their problems on something they call “depression”. It’s a nice scapegoat.

Well now that is interesting.

I have a feeling you may not believe narcissism is a disorder either:
"Narcissism is a personality disorder that most apparently manifests itself in an individual's ability to listen. Narcissism is defined as "excessive interest in oneself," and this trait can make it difficult for individuals to acknowledge or pay attention to others. Instead, the role of other people in the life of a person with narcissism is to provide praise, encouragement, support, and admiration. Extreme narcissism can cross over into a mental illness called narcissistic personality disorder, where a person is driven by a need for approval, and neither understands or cares about the feelings of others."
Oh well...

Anyhow @AgainstAllOdds, thank you for the thread. I also have a friend that has suffered through depression for several years. Only his was from war. To see someone you care about founder on the stormy rocks of life and sometime wonder if they are ever going to make it through....

Thanks again for sharing.

 

[biophase]

In my opinion (and I don't know anything about depression) one must master their ego. Again, this is all my opinion. I feel that the ego constantly makes you compare yourself to others and when you don't like the answer, depression or a sense of low self esteem creeps up. I highly recommend The Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday.

Society says you are supposed to be this and that in life. But what if you're not? What if you're ok, with you. Nobody can take that from you.

For you guys going through this entrepreneurial journey, yeah it's hard and rough. But that's what it is. Your friends working at corporate jobs may have boring lives doing the same stuff everyday. You are living this dynamic and unwritten life where you may hit it big in 3 months, while the 40hr week friends will be in the same place. Everyone views life and their space and worth in different ways. You just need to be comfortable with yours.

 

[Walter Hay]

AVOID DRINKING ALONE.
That's the single most triggering situation for acting on suicidal thoughts, gentlemen.
If you feel suicidal for more than six hours, for G-d's sakes go and eat some protein, meat, especially turkey.

Yes, drinking, and indeed many less understood activities, can trigger suicidal thoughts.
I note that you say "especially turkey." This suggests that you are probably aware that turkey meat contains high levels of the amino acid L-Tryptophan, which is a good anti-depressant for circumstantial depression -- the type that is predominately the kind of depression suffered by entrepreneurs. The problem is that you would have to eat almost a whole turkey to get a therapeutic dose. I will write more on antidepressants later in this post.

Because the depression leads to lethargy, and lethargy means I don't accomplish things that need to be done.. which only hurts the business and leads to more stress and depression.

It becomes a vicious circle, which is why depression should not be ignored.

As a counselor within my church, I have helped a lot of people suffering from either circumstantial depression or clinical depression, with a large number of cases sufferering from Bipolar Disorder.

For circumstantial depression, L-Tryptophan can be very effective with adequate doses, which would generally be 500mg just before bed. Taking more at bedtime can lead to having hallucinations. If depression continues, another 500mg in the morning won't cause hallucinations.

I prefer to recommend 5Hydroxytryptophan, which bypasses the digestive processes and is directly taken up in the brain. Dose is usually 100mg.

When a patient presents with severe, long term, and potentially life-threatening clinical depression, lazy or inept psychiatrists will prescribe SSRI antidepressants without taking the simple precaution of asking a standard set of questions to check whether the patient is suffering from Bipolar Disorder.

The administration of antidepressants for Bipolar sufferers without also prescribing mood levelers such as Lithium (the Gold standard treatment) can result in increasing the severity of their manic behavior. Results can be disastrous.

Sorry about my rant, but I have seen great harm done through carelessness. I suggest that rather than self-medicate, consult a Naturopathic Practitioner who understands mental illnesses, or an Orthomolecular Psychiatrist.

Walter

 

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[AgainstAllOdds]

I remember telling my mom when I was a young kid that I thought I was either going to be a millionaire or homeless and that describes me very well.

Also fair warning: I've seen you post this line a couple times - implying that it's something you actually believe.

If you don't hit millionaire status fast enough, be careful when your mind starts implying that homelessness is what you deserve. It's not. Just something stupid that you said as a kid that you decided to use as motivation.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Thread upgraded to GOLD.

 

[Bertram]

It's a tough topic, but one that should not be taboo to talk about.

If you choose the life of an entrepreneur, there's one thing you need to accept that's not in almost any business book: Your probability of being depressed, stressed, and anxious skyrockets.



You're 4x more likely to be depressed at some point if you choose the "fastlane" path. To get through the dark times, you have to be mentally strong and prepared. You also have to acknowledge that this is something that can happen, and be ready to get help when you need it.

The life of an entrepreneur is not easy. Socially, you're considered an outcast by family members and friends that all have slowlane jobs. Financially, you're continuously on the brink of ruin until you get something going. Ego-wise, you're bouncing between feeling like a god and felling like a bum. I've been there, I know. I'm still there every once in awhile.

It's hard, and something you need to prepare for.

In my life, I'm currently struggling with a best friend that's become an alcoholic - and on the inside it's tearing me apart. He couldn't handle the stress and turned to drinking. As his numbers didn't meet with his time expectations, that led to more drinking and more depression, and more drinking again. He's on a downward spiral and we're doing our best to make help him, making sure he doesn't do anything stupid, but bit by bit he's losing a part of himself each day.

It's incredibly hard to see, but I get it.

I've personally had suicidal thoughts, and know a good number of entrepreneurs that were in a similar boat. Start of 2017 I had a paper net worth over a million at 25. End of 2017, I had my money stolen by a factory, and went broke. When I found out I lost it all, I spent the night drinking a fifth by myself in a Malaysian nightclub wondering if I should end it. The next day I woke up, realized I loved myself, and started questioning why I'd ever think that. So I bought a ticket to a village in Thailand and did Muay Thai every day until I got my mind right. I caught my depression before it could catch me.

This is something that you need to prepare for. For a lot of you ambitious folks, it's something that comes with the territory. Don't believe me?

Here are quotes from a few top entrepreneurs:











This is something that a lot of ambitious people go through.

And it's not something you should be ashamed of, if it hits you too. However, it is something that you need to acknowledge exists as a risk, and determine if you have the mental fortitude to jump into entrepreneurship and the fastlane.

You also need a plan to deal with the stress, sadness, and darkness if it comes.

For me, things that really help are:

• Working out. It's a great stress relief that releases endorphins and helps you feel better little by little.
• Having friends that are going through or have gone through the same struggle. This forum is amazing with the wealth of entrepreneurial experiences. It's nice to know that you're not alone and not feel as isolated. Meet these people in real life to make it more real.
• Staying away from substances when I'm sad or stressed. If I'm feeling down, I stay away from anything that can be a crutch. There's very little in life that three nights of sleep can't fix. Stay away from alcohol, drugs, and other substances when you're feeling down. They won't help you, just make matters worse.
• Things that I'm proud of and can point at. Some of my proudest accomplishments are people that I've helped. When you're feeling good, consider going out and helping others. Consider this your mental insurance policy when you're feeling down. When you're down, just think of the people you've helped, and use that as motivation to go forward.

For yourself, make sure you have your own plan if things go bad. And remember: your mental health is more important than any dollar you make. Your identity isn't money, or how your business is doing. Those are just things that you happen to do.

Any thoughts?

Entrepreneurs are the best people around.
This discussion will save some lives, @AgainstAllOdds .
Suicidal depression associated with financial stress is most dangerous to males, especially from the early 30s onwards.
AVOID DRINKING ALONE.
That's the single most triggering situation for acting on suicidal thoughts, gentlemen.
If you feel suicidal for more than six hours, for G-d's sakes go and eat some protein, meat, especially turkey.
Suicide always leaves a mess behind.
Suicide always ruins others' lives.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Thanks for this post. You’re right. People don’t talk about it because who wants to shine a spotlight on the most vulnerable area of their life?

And it IS an identity thing and one of shame and guilt over making wrong mistakes or failing to do the right things. We need to be able to talk about it.. but I can barely tell the closest ppl in my life about this crap.

And who the heck is gonna pay for a therapist when they’re trying to feed their kids?!?

Talking about money sucks but it’s necessary.

 

[CareCPA]

@AgainstAllOdds thank you for writing this and putting it out there on the forum. I touched on it briefly in my thread The Desert of Desertion is real... and I'm in it.

But the Desert of Desertion can quickly turn into straight depression. And honestly, I'm there.

We all know that finances are usually the biggest trigger for this sort of thing, in our world. We're always flirting with the edge of financial collapse. And it gets compounded when it affects "the real world", i.e. your family.

Having a newborn, it really weighs on me.
"If the business collapses, will all of these credit cards come after me personally?"
"Are we going to have to move out of a house into an apartment?"
"Is it fair to her that I'm always thinking about the business, even when I'm home?"

I'd love to say I've found some way to cope and handle the stress and depression, but I haven't. Having a supportive wife, who picks up on my cues helps though. Having friends in the game like @Greg R and the other guys in my mastermind help.

But its something I really need to focus on finding an outlet for. Because the depression leads to lethargy, and lethargy means I don't accomplish things that need to be done.. which only hurts the business and leads to more stress and depression.

If it's any consolation (and it won't be, sorry), it gets better.

We finished building our house Oct 2017. We had our kid October 2017. January 2018 the wife went back to work, and they didn't treat her well because she was on maternity leave (passed over for a bonus and a promotion, both of which were overdue).

We made the decision for her to quit that toxic work environment, but we knew our revenue from the business was literally not enough to cover our bills, and we had a couple months of runway until we were either running on debt or getting a "real job."

I worked my butt off to bring in clients, and eventually we got through the finances, but it also means I was working sun-up to sun-down. Didn't see my kid much, couldn't help my wife enough when she needed it, and caused massive stress.

Getting better now, but it's definitely a process, and one that doesn't get solved overnight.

 

[AFMKelvin]

I've been depressed for a long time. Ever since I left college for the entrepreneur life.

I'm finally getting out of my depressive state.

I have isolated my self from friends and family. I couldn't cope with their outlook in life. Once I dropped out of college they started treating me differently. They thought I was just been lazy and throwing away everything.

It's hard to explain to most people that I'm looking for a way to escape the financial hamster wheel. I don't want to run on a wheel I want to run on a field.

But looking for that freedom is the depressive and lonely part. Working for someone else is very secured. You have HR backing you up if your boss is trying to get rid of you. You have unions, OSHA and even lawyers to lean on if your job is on the line and you're doing everything right. But as an entrepreneur there's no one to lean on.

Just like the company that stole OPs money. Who does he go to for justice? An employee has many institutions to get justice for unpaid or an abusive workplace. Entrepreneurs have none of that.

And people who have nice comfy jobs see entrepreneurs as lazy. Why? Because for the most part there is nothing to show. First you have to change your mindset, than researching all the aspects of a business etc. There's a lot of learning for those that don't come from business minded families. To outsiders it seems like wasted time.

If anyone reads this and needs a friend or someone to message PM me and I'll set up a discord for entrepreneur's emotional support. That way we always have a place to go to when we're feeling down.

 

[GuitarManDan]

Really solid post @AgainstAllOdds - I've personally never suffered from depression but the closest I ever came was at the peak of being miserable in my old 9-5 job before starting my own business.

I've always just been a social drinker but there was one specific night after a really frustrating and stressful day at work when I realized I drank way too much by myself for the specific purpose of using it as a crutch to get through the stress/frustration I was dealing with... that was a scary wake up call.

I'm still relatively new to the entrepreneur lifestyle (started around a year and a half ago doing web design/SEO) but it really is such an emotional roller coaster. In the past 24 hours I received amazing news that my biggest web design contract yet is in a really good place to go through (client agreed on the budget just figuring out specifics + paperwork) and at the same time I got rejected for two potentially huge SEO contracts.

Even though this has been my best month so far for my business, my biggest fear is still running out of money and having to go back to some soul-sucking job like I was doing before. In typical guy fashion, I definitely keep all of the emotional baggage in and rarely speak about it.. something I'm going to work on in the future.

 

[Andy Black]

In the past 24 hours I received amazing news that my biggest web design contract yet is in a really good place to go through (client agreed on the budget just figuring out specifics + paperwork) and at the same time I got rejected for two potentially huge SEO contracts.

I’m not excited until the money’s in my account. And even then I’m not that excited anymore. I almost think excitement isn’t a good thing. A poker pro doesn’t get excited or annoyed when cards do or don’t fall his way (or he shouldn’t anyway). Maybe I’m wrong?

 

[Soder]

This thread is a classic and instant gold.

My advice is no different from those of the Stoic and Buddhist classics:

1. Write your thoughts, rationalize your fear. Fear frightens us because it has no form, it is irrational. But if we put ourselves in the worst case, we identify it ex. "If this business does not work, the worst thing that will happen to me is that I will temporarily return to the slowlane until I recover my finances", that gives enormous peace of mind because we put our eyes and face to the fierce irrational fear.

2. Meditate. You are not your thoughts, take distance, observe them. Laugh at them.

3. Walk, preferably without mobile and slowly, in the nature. We come from nature and it calms our anxiety. We are not prepared to live in a society with so many stimuli, disconnects.

4. Breathe. A correct, slow and deep breath relaxes your stress.

“And once the storm is over, you won’t remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive. You won’t even be sure, whether the storm is really over. But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm, you won’t be the same person who walked in. That’s what this storm’s all about.” ― haruki murakami

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back."

Entrepreneurship is a tough and lonely gig.

Most will never achieve anything real. Most will never earn what they could have by simply sticking to their comfortable 9-to-5 career.

Earning less, putting in more hours, being socially isolated, while at the same time enduring 10 times the hardship and risk compared to an employee.

No wonder people get depressed and suicidal.

I blame all those damn gurus and "infopreneurs" pushing and selling entrepreneurship as the magical solution to wealth and freedom.

If this game makes one depressed and suicidal, maybe it's time to switch things up and do something else with your life. Not everybody is a warrior.

I’d like to respectfully disagree on one point... not everybody is a warrior but if you care enough about the battle to suit up and feel sad... you probably are already in the thick of it.

For years my friends (who I occasionally complained to when business sucked) would ask me “Why do you even have your own business if it’s so annoying to you?” (I’ve had two businesses before the one I’m on.. but between moving across country or having kids I’ve never had a business longer than four years. Right now I’m on month 18 of my current venture..)

And my only answer was “Because I have to.”

I HAVE to. Its the right thing to do. It’s the right way to go, for me. It pushes me and forces me to pray and forces me to learn.

When I work for someone else I slack off and punch the clock and I’m totally happy until that little voice says “you know you could be making double..”

And I’m like “Dammit!!” All over again.

This month has been a clusterbeep of epic levels. My car needed a costly fix, my clients are all on vacation, daycare is costing me an extra $1500 a month.. July is just TOUGH. But then I started having faith and just praising God for putting me here... thanking Him in my heart and outloud for taking care of me even though I was seriously screwed. The Obstacle IS the way. Resistance is pushing against me because this is PRECISELY the direction I’m meant to go, the path that will refine my character and improve my life, and bless other people..

I’m a small business owner who has never cleared 5k in a month and in the last ten days I sold $2,800 worth of packages and services. I needed every cent.

You gotta understand.. I’m a person who believed SO LITTLE in my own self that me even having another business was a mental battle and yet...

I was able to be home with my babies every day this month .. by 4. Is it hard not knowing what the future brings?? Absofreakinglutely.

But my time!! I have TIME to do things. I’m not stuck somewhere from 9-5 every day.. and that’s wonderful!

I’d argue that the REAL REASON we all go through these crazy depressive days is because this is EXACTLY what we’re meant to be doing and the Enemy (or whatever word you have for the nefarious force in the universe that wants us to be lazy and fat and stupid) pushes so hard against us because he hates our light and our productivity and our faith and joy.

It takes crazy faith to bet on yourself, to bet on your future. Maybe next week I’ll need somebody to encourage me again but today? Today I’m sitting here amazed at just how much can happen in a month.

Stuff that would never happen at just a job.

Before November of 2018 I never even imagined that I could EVER scale and yet.. now after being on this forum and reading these books and being so incredibly inspired regularly.. I’m starting to believe. And my income keeps going up. Hallelujah. (Even if I have been stubborn or preoccupied or afraid.. lol)

Forgive me for the ramble.

 

[Walter Hay]

Unless a person has at least some knowledge of the biochemistry of the brain, they will possibly not understand the reality of depression; or of mania for that matter.
It is important for people suffering from either of those problems to understand:

• They are not to blame.
• They are not lazy.
• They are not faking it.
• Their parents are not to blame.
• They are not fools, or intellectually impaired.
• They are not a failure.

Here's a very simplified description of the brain function:

The human brain is rather like a complex electrical circuitry, or some might prefer to describe it as a computer. It has countless little components called neurons, with protrusions that are in effect electrical contacts. These are protected by a substance called myelin which to all intents and purposes acts as an insulation.

In some severe illnesses, the myelin breaks down, causing what amount to short circuits. No fault in the person in such cases, but their behavior can change markedly.

A breakdown in the brain's electrical system can be a result of a multitude of factors. Stress, whether physical or mental is a major factor. There are other significant causes, including something as simple as exposure to an allergen, or even a genetic inheritance that weakens the system, just as some inherit genes that weaken their heart, lungs, etc.

Intake of mind altering substances is a well known cause of the breaking down of the brain's normal functions.

The most extreme form of stress causing the circuits to break down is deliberate brainwashing. Constant torture, or even repeated threats, or persistent repetitive sounds, or lights flashing, can all induce a breakdown of the system. When the brain becomes overloaded by these stresses, it actually switches off like a circuit breaker in a power board.

That effect is known as "protective inhibition", and is the brain state required for brainwashing to be effective. At that time a person is almost totally suggestible. They will believe that black is white. They will hate their former friends, associates, or loved ones if told that they do. Their former beliefs can be discarded and the opposite adopted.

I write all of this to highlight the fact that there are biochemical factors in severe cases of depression or mania, and to a large extent they are outside of the person's control. That is not to say that there are not good preventative measures possible. Some have been mentioned by others; including exercise, healthy diet, etc.

It is important to differentiate between the two main types of depression: Circumstantial, and clinical. The former is a result of unpleasant or sad events. We all feel that to some degree, although sometimes it is only fleeting. The latter is invariably a result of factors such as I mentioned above.

Unless there is an underlying cause that makes us unhappy for a prolonged period, we get can over circumstantial depression.

Clinical depression is quite another matter. The worst thing that you can do to a person suffering from that is to tell them to just get over it. Or as one poster has done, to deny its existence. What is needed is professional assistance, which might take the form of correcting the deficiencies in a person's lifestyle, but more commonly through appropriate medication that will remedy the malfunctioning synapses and neurons.

Walter

 

[MetalGear]

• You are much more than your bank account, business, or even slow lane job
• Good to check in with yourself to ask "what place am I coming from?"
  • Inspiration or desperation?
    • Desperation will eventually burn you out and lead to depression
• Good to have an identity outside of business - relationships, hobbies
• I know I tend to get afraid of slacking and veer towards the all or nothing mentality
• I'm no expert and am still trying to figure it out

 

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[YoungPadawan]

Man, this post really hits home.

I personally have Bipolar disorder, and the emotional rollercoaster is neverending.

During my depressive days, I lay in bed and stare at my ceiling. My mind magnifies on the bad parts of my life - like how people criticize me for buying a mediocre, cheap car. How they probably talk crap about me because my house currently looks straight out of the 60's.

My parents wonder why the hell I'm spending my money on these stupid business ventures. They think I'm nuts for wiring $5,000 to China for my custom developed product.

My friends are all slowlane. They see my modest success, and criticize and try to bring me down. In the rural area that I live in, nobody seems to have big dreams. They hate anybody trying to do something different.

They all don't see the vision. They all don't get it.

On my non-depressive days, I feel invincible. I imagine the future of my company touching every corner of the globe. Impacting billions and changing the world. I love days like this and I wish this mania would never end. But it is always a matter of time before I fall back into the pit of depression.

I definitely can relate to the quotes that AgainstAllOdds posted.

If anyone has experienced things like this, I second the exercise recommendation. It definitely helps. Here's a few additional things that I've found can help out with the depression:

• Drink lots of water
• During winter, get a SAD light. I wake up in the morning and turn that on while I work for about an hour. I've found that helps, even if it could just be a placebo.
• Have a healthy diet. Eat lots of fruits and veggies. Crap food will make you feel like crap.
• DO NOT ISOLATE YOURSELF. As much as you want to, don't do it.
• Don't listen to sad music, and don't watch sad movies. Watch something funny. Listen to positive, upbeat music.

No matter how wild the rollercoaster is, keep slugging away at your dreams.

 

[Roli]

It's a tough topic, but one that should not be taboo to talk about.

If you choose the life of an entrepreneur, there's one thing you need to accept that's not in almost any business book: Your probability of being depressed, stressed, and anxious skyrockets.

Well done for broaching this subject, too often in our community there is a just get on with it attitude when it comes to matters of depression and/or anxiety.

I have personally found meditation very helpful, and also some of the tactics in Deep Work really helped me switch off and relax. I now make a conscious effort to shut down at the end of the day. In addition to that making specific time to think over problems (this helps you sleep better and quells anxiety).

So instead of lying awake worrying about conversions, you say to yourself; I will tackle that problem between 10.30 and 11.30 a.m. This has the effect of chilling you out and allowing you to concentrate on something else or simply go to sleep.

As you mention exercise is great, the problem is if you're anxious or depressed you don't feel like exercise. So you just have to keep telling yourself it'll be great and you'll feel like it when you're doing it.

my wife and I jumped in the car with the dog and headed to a large state park with nice water falls and rivers.

I saw a video about some interesting research which proved that negative ions create positive emotions within us. The biggest sources of them are in dense forest and crashing water, so waterfalls, cliffs, etc.

I often go to my local park and just find a quiet spot, take my shoes off so my bare feet are on the grass, and just breathe deeply. This simple little trick can really elevate my mood and make me feel invigorated.

Having a newborn, it really weighs on me.
"If the business collapses, will all of these credit cards come after me personally?"
"Are we going to have to move out of a house into an apartment?"
"Is it fair to her that I'm always thinking about the business, even when I'm home?"

I know the feeling, you just have to concentrate on what's important. Whilst you have fears about providing for your child, you must remember that as long as they are healthy and getting lots of parental love and nurturing, the most important bases are covered. Everything else can be worked on.

Maybe your credit card companies will come after you personally. The worst that can happen is you have to declare bankruptcy and go on a repayment plan. - Your child will still be healthy and loved.

Maybe you will have to move into a smaller place. - Your child will still be healthy and loved.

Perhaps it's not fair to always be thinking about the business. So create shutdown zones in your mind, times whereby you think about nothing but being a loving husband and doting father. As I mentioned above, the Deep Work trick of telling your mind that you will think about certain problems at specific times, will quell your anxiety and make you feel more confident in decision making.

Above all else: - Your child will still be healthy and loved and that is all that matters.

Lastly for anyone reading this, do not think of worrying problems before 7 a.m. This is because your limbic system in your brain, which mainly processes emotion, is almost completely in charge between about 4 and 7. Therefore any problems will seem a lot worse than they actually are, instead get into the habit of designating times after 9 a.m. to think about them.

 

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[100ToOne]

Amazing input from a lot of the previous posts.

I think a lot of the "worldly" techniques have been mentioned above and have to be taken with great importance and action. Because your body affects the mind and soul and vice versa.

However, what about from a spiritual prospective? I think a lot of the forum members here believe in a God of some sort. Doesn't matter which religion in this context.

This belief of God exists since man existed. It was and still used to cope with life and its struggles.

Detachment is the key to all spiritual struggles. The moment you attach yourself to ANYTHING but God, which has a high probability of failing you, you will be disappointed. Because whether it fails or succeeds, one day it will disappoint you. Unlike God.

Isn't entrepreneurship a method we use to reach financial freedom? Then why should we allow it to be a financial prison?

Talking like this makes me sound like I'm the one that fixed his entrepreneurship depression and is now living in happiness. I'm far from it. But if it wasn't for it, I would of been in a hell of a depression.

I just wanted to share with anyone of you that might find this helpful and maybe make him in a better shape to hande the entrepreneurship rollercoaster.

It works for me and it worked for a lot of other people for thousands of years.
I'm not talking about belief in God alone, but in actively believing that whether you succeed or fail, you just acted upon the worldly reasons that you need to take in order to reach your goal, but whether you reach it or not, that's not your in hands eventually.

If you lost everything you own in the next one hour (God forbid), monetarily speaking, what will your next hours look like? Will you commit suicide? Or will you feel sad like any other human and then get back working to feed yourself and your family?

 

[Wolfman]

Guys, you are actually really lucky...according to an official old fart.(me) You guys can't imagine how much stigma was attached to all this "mental crap" (j/k) You used to have to be psycho to go see a shrink..
Anyhow, just the fact we're having this discussion is a luxury. I want to mention a word everyone on here knows--"investment". It really is a good idea to invest in our mental/emotional health. Sometimes it takes a huge sacrifice.
Last night I splurged on a chocolate brownie sundae at Culvers. I made that huge sacrifice to protect my mental health.
I'm being tongue-in-cheek here but making a serious point. Sometimes we need to cut ourselves some slack. As an entrepreneur, you're almost ensured that your boss is an over-demanding a-hole, drill sergeant, idiot. Thanks to all for being open, Wolfman