Vegan / Vegetarians Only (Chat about lifestyle, opportunities, food, whatever...)

[S.Y.]

Yeh, muscle is important but it's not a massive deal. If you are frail or really thin you should live longer due to your internal organs doing less work, but do you really want to be struggling to move around the last 20 years of your life just to maybe live another 3 years?

There is a balance that needs to be had I think.

Muscle strength is hugely important, specially for healthspan.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQDBUz8Arxw

 

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[Timmy C]

Muscle strength is hugely important, specially for healthspan.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQDBUz8Arxw

People often focus on building muscle like it's the only thing that matters for quality of life though.

Flexibility and mobility matters aswell.

Get someone who's only lifted weights for years to do some yoga classes and see how rigid and inflexible they are.

 

[S.Y.]

People often focus on building muscle like it's the only thing that matters for quality of life though.

Flexibility and mobility matters aswell.

Get someone who's only lifted weights for years to do some yoga classes and see how rigid and inflexible they are.

Totally agree with that!

I spend more time on mobility and movement in general than on building muscle. Mobility is extremely underrated and overlooked.

 

[Subsonic]

I've had that when I was cutting too much or for too long.

And if I remember correctly, you posted some pictures of yourself and I'm pretty sure you don't need a cut, you need to build muscle.

Maybe yeah. However, I am pretty far from skinny and getting abs is a dream of mine that I might actually archive this summer.

Hi subsonic, a few thoughts on the matter:

Theory #1: you might me lacking micronutrients.

- do you take a multivitamin at the moment?
- If not, maybe try to incorporate one for a few weeks to see if your issues subside.
- If they do subside, you indeed are lacking a few micro nutrients and have to adjust your diet accordingly.
- The App "Cronometer" can be an awesome tool to see if you get all of the micros right


Theory #2: not enough protein, not enough calories

- in the western hemisphere it is nearly impossible to have a lack of protein, as nearly everything has protein, even plain potatoes. so imho if you are getting 1g of protein per 1kg bodyweight, you should be fine - even as an athlete

- not enough calories: are you currently cutting? if you run to big/agressive of an energy deficit for to long, it will harm you. intermittent periods of controlled/planned undereating/fasting are imho however beneficial


Theory #3: you might not be lacking micronutrients, but consuming something that is actively harming you.

- possible food allergies, intolerance, junk foods etc.


Theory #4: other underlying conditions

- not enough recovery/sleep?
- undetected systemic issue/diseases?
- have you checked your thyroid hormones?

I don't take multivitamin, so I'll start taking those.

Regarding theory 2
Protein shouldn't be an issue, but I'll make sure to eat some more beans anyway.
Calories might be the obvious issue. I am going pretty aggressive with 1.7k calories a day for roughly 6 months now (sticking to it sometimes more, sometimes less), though I have only lost about 1kg a month (currently 68.5kg at 1.80m height).

Theory 3

Can't imagine this tbh. I eat basically as clean as one can.
Though maybe going on an elimination diet could uncover some things harming me (dairy and bread may be offenders).

Theory 4

Sleep is decent, but I train on average 6 times a week, hence there might be an issue.
Underlying systemic issues are pretty unlikely since I am young, healthy (aside from slight asthma) and generally active.
Idk what my thyroid hormones are, so I'll ask my doctor next week if we can check those.

Thanks for the extensive post.

Do you take creatine ?

Just ordered a pack after seeing it recommended here.

 

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[MTF]

Maybe yeah. However, I am pretty far from skinny and getting abs is a dream of mine that I might actually archive this summer.

I am going pretty aggressive with 1.7k calories a day for roughly 6 months now (sticking to it sometimes more, sometimes less), though I have only lost about 1kg a month (currently 68.5kg at 1.80m height).

That's crazy low for a young active dude, especially for 6 months. And your weight is extremely low for your height as well. Given these numbers, I'm pretty sure you won't have any satisfying abs definition anytime soon because it's not about your body fat but about your lack of muscle.

More on this for example here (this guy is super no-hype and very practical):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ_zS8ktdEA

Case in point, I'm 186 cm and at my lowest, my weight was 72 kg. This was the only time I had some visible abs but to be honest, it wasn't really proper abs. It was just a flat stomach and other than that I was horribly skinny and lanky (not attractive):

 

[Freigeist]

Maybe yeah. However, I am pretty far from skinny and getting abs is a dream of mine that I might actually archive this summer.

I don't take multivitamin, so I'll start taking those.

Regarding theory 2
Protein shouldn't be an issue, but I'll make sure to eat some more beans anyway.
Calories might be the obvious issue. I am going pretty aggressive with 1.7k calories a day for roughly 6 months now (sticking to it sometimes more, sometimes less), though I have only lost about 1kg a month (currently 68.5kg at 1.80m height).

Theory 3

Can't imagine this tbh. I eat basically as clean as one can.
Though maybe going on an elimination diet could uncover some things harming me (dairy and bread may be offenders).

Theory 4

Sleep is decent, but I train on average 6 times a week, hence there might be an issue.
Underlying systemic issues are pretty unlikely since I am young, healthy (aside from slight asthma) and generally active.
Idk what my thyroid hormones are, so I'll ask my doctor next week if we can check those.

Thanks for the extensive post.

Just ordered a pack after seeing it recommended here.

yeah, most welcome @Subsonic

But there are many variables at play and since neither of us know your exact circumstances, those comments can only be guesstimates

but i guess taking a multiviatmin, bumbing up your calories a bit and getting a full blood panel is a good start in adressing the issue.

are you extensively stressed atm? chronic stress will shut down your immune system aswell over time.

 

[Subsonic]

That's crazy low for a young active dude, especially for 6 months. And your weight is extremely low for your height as well. Given these numbers, I'm pretty sure you won't have any satisfying abs definition anytime soon because it's not about your body fat but about your lack of muscle.

More on this for example here (this guy is super no-hype and very practical):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ_zS8ktdEA

Case in point, I'm 186 cm and at my lowest, my weight was 72 kg. This was the only time I had some visible abs but to be honest, it wasn't really proper abs. It was just a flat stomach and other than that I was horribly skinny and lanky (not attractive):

View attachment 56203

Video was a great watch. You've got me convinced to up my calories to 2k per day at least and to do more abs training.

yeah, most welcome @Subsonic

But there are many variables at play and since neither of us know your exact circumstances, those comments can only be guesstimates

but i guess taking a multiviatmin, bumbing up your calories a bit and getting a full blood panel is a good start in adressing the issue.

are you extensively stressed atm? chronic stress will shut down your immune system aswell over time.

Stress, maybe.

I'm writing my finals and also getting more customers for my business than ever. However, I don't really feel stressed in a bad way.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

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[piano]

Regarding theory 2
Protein shouldn't be an issue, but I'll make sure to eat some more beans anyway.

Are you getting in all your amino acids? Beans are "incomplete proteins" AIFAIK

Calories might be the obvious issue. I am going pretty aggressive with 1.7k calories a day for roughly 6 months now (sticking to it sometimes more, sometimes less), though I have only lost about 1kg a month (currently 68.5kg at 1.80m height).

I cannot imagine living with sub 2000 calories. Not because I wouldn't manage to, but because I'd probably just slowly die over the long-term. Eating just a little bit less for a day sets me back rougly 1/3 kilo AT LEAST.
And that's why your weight loss, or rather lack there-of, surprises me.
@heavy_industry is used to fasting. Perhaps you know something, Heavy?

Sleep is decent, but I train on average 6 times a week, hence there might be an issue.

@Spenny is gonna bash me for this, but I think training 6 times a week is way too much. Especially with so little calories -> little energy replenishment. At this pace and that diet, your weightlifting (which I assume is what you're training) will have started to lean more towards cardio/endurance training than anaerobic exercise.

Not to mention my gym recovery, sometimes it takes me a week to recover from leg day.

Especially here, do you still train 6 days a week even when this sore? Your muscle isn't gonna grow if you don't give it time to heal. Adaption is a thing I guess but from what you've written and what I know, you've been training like this for a longer time now.

I'm writing my finals and also getting more customers for my business than ever. However, I don't really feel stressed in a bad way.

Good luck in your finals!
I'm genuinely not sure if I'd even be able to do that (at least with actually good grades).

 

[Spenny]

@Spenny is gonna bash me for this, but I think training 6 times a week is way too much. Especially with so little calories -> little energy replenishment. At this pace and that diet, your weightlifting (which I assume is what you're training) will have started to lean more towards cardio/endurance training than anaerobic exercise.

I have changed my stance since, I now do 4/5 times a week.

It doesn't matter what the routine is, as long as you're putting on muscle (or achieving health goals) and don't live in the gym.

 

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[Freigeist]

the insta-post reminds me of this old gem here:

Look At The Junk On That Conveyor Belt! No Wonder You're Fat/Overweight/Broke/Poor!

 

[biophase]

Yeh, muscle is important but it's not a massive deal. If you are frail or really thin you should live longer due to your internal organs doing less work, but do you really want to be struggling to move around the last 20 years of your life just to maybe live another 3 years?

There is a balance that needs to be had I think.

As a 50+ year old, I will say I wish I put on more muscle when I was younger, vs staying lean and trim. Especially in the legs and back. I would have traded more muscle for being a little fatter. Just a little.

The second thing is to get limber and stretch more.

As you age the struggle is to keep the muscle you have. Building muscle is like a double edged sword because you have less testosterone and need more recovery time which means less workouts and more rest which is just a revolving circle of slow muscle growth and fighting muscle atrophy.

I think if I had 5-10 lbs more lower body muscle how much longer it would take to lose it over the next 20 years vs me trying to gain 2-5 lbs of leg muscle and keep it for the next 20 years.

You don’t generally see older men with weak arms or chest. Or at least those are not their weaknesses. They can’t get up fast or move side to side. I see this in pickleball a lot where the elderly can usually hang with younger players at the kitchen because of hand speed and upper body movement, but footwork, balance and mobility are really below average.

 

[biophase]

Protein shouldn't be an issue, but I'll make sure to eat some more beans anyway.
Calories might be the obvious issue. I am going pretty aggressive with 1.7k calories a day for roughly 6 months now (sticking to it sometimes more, sometimes less), though I have only lost about 1kg a month (currently 68.5kg at 1.80m height).

Ok you are like me when I was in my 20-30s. I was 5’10” and 150lbs. I’m 52 now and 165lbs. At maybe +1-2% body fat level.

My problem when I was younger was I had a high metabolism and was naturally skinny. I was always worried about getting fat when working out. I also didn’t eat enough. Looking back I think I worked out hard enough and where I went wrong was actually not enough food. I got enough protein but I should have 1.5x the amount. I also didn’t get enough carbs and fat during that time. I thought my energy level was pretty good but realized it should have been much higher afterwards.

If I had to do it over again, I’d eat a lot more and get more protein and see if your strength increases faster. I wouldn’t worry about gaining a little fat. But this is only because now I know my body a lot more. Who knew that my metabolism would still remain the same in my 40s and 50s. Losing fat is something my body is good at. Gaining muscle was not.

Again in hindsight, maybe I should have known. Both my parents have always been and are still skinny. Maybe I should have thought of that genetically.

 

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[Timmy C]

As a 50+ year old, I will say I wish I put on more muscle when I was younger, vs staying lean and trim. Especially in the legs and back. I would have traded more muscle for being a little fatter. Just a little.

The second thing is to get limber and stretch more.

As you age the struggle is to keep the muscle you have. Building muscle is like a double edged sword because you have less testosterone and need more recovery time which means less workouts and more rest which is just a revolving circle of slow muscle growth and fighting muscle atrophy.

I think if I had 5-10 lbs more lower body muscle how much longer it would take to lose it over the next 20 years vs me trying to gain 2-5 lbs of leg muscle and keep it for the next 20 years.

You don’t generally see older men with weak arms or chest. Or at least those are not their weaknesses. They can’t get up fast or move side to side. I see this in pickleball a lot where the elderly can usually hang with younger players at the kitchen because of hand speed and upper body movement, but footwork, balance and mobility are really below average.

Good insights mate, it's good to get a take from someone who is more along the aging timeline.

Do you think that now you are over 50, fairly healthy, and feeling the effects of aging, that the benefit of getting on testosterone replacement therapy would be worth it?

In Australia, it's not as accepted as the USA, but I can imagine for an older person they might find it beneficial.

For me, I have never touched it, or any steroids. But it is something that when I am your age, I can imagine giving it some serious consideration to improve quality of life, as well as strength and fat loss.

I don't know much about it, but I do have a decent understanding about the topic.

One thing I have noticed, is that guys that get on it at about 30 can have huge issues.

They get to a point, that they always have tendon injuries, their tendons get so messed up as they can't handle the training volume and they have surgeries etc, and are constantly messed up.

Its why i havent taken it, i know i would love it and i wouldnt want to stop taking it.

Have you had any challenges, such as degenerative conditions that have prevented you from being as active as you like, in turn hurting your ability to gain muscle and lose fat?

 

[biophase]

Good insights mate, it's good to get a take from someone who is more along the aging timeline.

Do you think that now you are over 50, fairly healthy, and feeling the effects of aging, that the benefit of getting on testosterone replacement therapy would be worth it?

The last time I got my testosterone level checked I was at 450. So I'm like right on the borderline for my age. It's a tough decision because once you go on, you never stop. I have many friends on it and they do gain muscle fast. I would imagine that if I tested under 400 that I may need to start it.

In Australia, it's not as accepted as the USA, but I can imagine for an older person they might find it beneficial.

For me, I have never touched it, or any steroids. But it is something that when I am your age, I can imagine giving it some serious consideration to improve quality of life, as well as strength and fat loss.

I don't know much about it, but I do have a decent understanding about the topic.

One thing I have noticed, is that guys that get on it at about 30 can have huge issues.

They get to a point, that they always have tendon injuries, their tendons get so messed up as they can't handle the training volume and they have surgeries etc, and are constantly messed up.

What I've read is that this comes from the fast muscle growth and that the tendons don't grow as fast so their strength becomes imbalanced in relation to the muscle size.

Funny thing is that now, I feel like some tendons of mine are sore more often than my muscles. I need to give them time to catch up from my daily exercising. Muscles recover faster than tendons is what I've read. My soreness now is mainly from weak hip flexor muscles and tendons in the knees and achilles. Once I get those strengthened I probably would feel like I can workout/play everyday all day.

Have you had any challenges, such as degenerative conditions that have prevented you from being as active as you like, in turn hurting your ability to gain muscle and lose fat?

I'm in pretty good shape and am actually too active. My problem is not enough rest time. That's why it's frustrating. I want to workout but have to take it slower. This is where T-replacement begins to look really attractive.

I play about 2-3 hours of pickleball everyday. I try to rest, but end up playing around 5-6x a week. I'm pretty quick for my age and pretty nimble. I stretch alot. Problem is I don't hit the heavy weights as often as I should.

Just to give an idea of muscle loss. I used to be able to barely touch the rim in 2017 (was 46) and I'm 5'10". At 5'10" my overhead reach is about 7'6" so I had a vertical of 30" at that time. Now I can touch the net about 1/4 of the way up. So I've lost over foot on my vertical in the last 6 years.

 

[Freigeist]

Since we discussed Blueprint/Bryan Johnson:
you might want to check out his Audiobook "Zeroism", Bryan released it for free on YouTube yesterday - it is an interesting listen.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQxgow0gShI


"The first thing I did was label any behavior that increased my speed of aging as an act of violence"

"Every second of every day, my mind is searching for the most important piece of information available. What is
the highest value use of my time? What is the most piercing insight at this moment? What can’t I see, but if I could,
would change the way I understand reality?"

 

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[harumi]

Shop the perimeter of the supermarkets and stay out of the middle sections — the least processed food is usually near the perimeter because they need to restock it the most as it goes bad quickest.

 

[Jon822]

 

[Subsonic]

I got a blood test done in light of my tendency to get sick often.

Turns out I am deficient in hemoglobin and folic acid by a decent ammount.
That leaves me with the choice of either taking supplements or eating broccoli regularly.

Ok a more positive note, my liver values -which used to be at critical levels - are now incredible. Very simplified, I had values in the mid 100s (healthy limit is 30) and now they are all below 30.

 

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[MTF]

Turns out I am deficient in hemoglobin and folic acid by a decent ammount.
That leaves me with the choice of either taking supplements or eating broccoli regularly.

If you're that deficient, you could also do both. Higher doses of supplements would boost your levels sooner (potentially preventing you from another infection), and then you'd maintain them with a proper diet.

 

[Subsonic]

If you're that deficient, you could also do both. Higher doses of supplements would boost your levels sooner (potentially preventing you from another infection), and then you'd maintain them with a proper diet.

Yeah good point.

I'll certainly be looking into meals that I enjoy which also aid my nutrition in this regard.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Turns out I am deficient in hemoglobin and folic acid by a decent ammount.

You should get a MTHFR gene test to see if you can methylate folate properly.

Search for MTHFR gene deficiency.

For people with the gene (I have the worst kind, both dominant) it means your body cannot properly process Folic Acid, and you become deficient. The only answer is to take methylated folate, and avoid folic acid like it was poison. Bread is fortified with this garbage.

I have to do this with B12 and Folate -- cheap B12, cyanocobalamin is like posion to me. So is folic acid. If I have something rich in folic acid, usually fortified by processed food, I get fatigued for hours after.

Everything must be pre-methylated so my body can use it. B12 = methylcobalamin and Folic Acid = methylfolate.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Looking jacked! What's a typical days food spread look like for you?

Fruits, vegetables, beans, lentils, tofu, seitan, a lot of salads, plant-based protein drinks and powders.

I've eliminated most sugar. No processed foods except for some fake meat perhaps once per week.

I eat extremely clean and have been for awhile. Last dexa scan confirmed 4 lbs of muscle added, 6lbs of fat lost.

Although I now need to confess something with respect to my longevity crusade to 100 years of age. I had some more extensive blood work done due to my family history with Alzheimers and my fatty acid levels where not at level where they would become cognitively protective. As such and much to my dismay, about a month ago I had to add fish to my diet as well as a ton of fish-oil capsules. I don't even like fish and yea, I'm not happy about it. However, I'd rather deal with the cognitive dissonance of this health choice than deal with early onset Alzheimers, which if I follow the path of my father, I should start experiencing in 7 years. I'm doing everything I can to not make that happen, even if that means I technically become 10% pesctatarian and 90% vegan.

I'd rather die early than lose my mind.

 

[Subsonic]

You should get a MTHFR gene test to see if you can methylate folate properly.

Search for MTHFR gene deficiency.

For people with the gene (I have the worst kind, both dominant) it means your body cannot properly process Folic Acid, and you become deficient. The only answer is to take methylated folate, and avoid folic acid like it was poison. Bread is fortified with this garbage.

I have to do this with B12 and Folate -- cheap B12, cyanocobalamin is like posion to me. So is folic acid. If I have something rich in folic acid, usually fortified by processed food, I get fatigued for hours after.

Everything must be pre-methylated so my body can use it. B12 = methylcobalamin and Folic Acid = methylfolate.

Holy shit thank you so much.
I never heard of this but I'll make sure to get this checked out as soon as I can. I do get pretty tired after eating bread so that checks out.

 

[Bounce Back]

I'd rather die early than lose my mind.

100% in agreement.

When I first learned about Alzheimer's as a kid I thought it sounded like the absolute worst thing that could happen to a person "health" wise. Like torture but in most cases you don't even know you are going through it. Takes the whole "live/learn/experience" underpinning of what we think of life and turns it into "I guess you are alive?".

Thanks for sharing your typical diet with us!

 

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[Jon822]

Fruits, vegetables, beans, lentils, tofu, seitan, a lot of salads, plant-based protein drinks and powders.

I've eliminated most sugar. No processed foods except for some fake meat perhaps once per week.

I eat extremely clean and have been for awhile. Last dexa scan confirmed 4 lbs of muscle added, 6lbs of fat lost.

Although I now need to confess something with respect to my longevity crusade to 100 years of age. I had some more extensive blood work done due to my family history with Alzheimers and my fatty acid levels where not at level where they would become cognitively protective. As such and much to my dismay, about a month ago I had to add fish to my diet as well as a ton of fish-oil capsules. I don't even like fish and yea, I'm not happy about it. However, I'd rather deal with the cognitive dissonance of this health choice than deal with early onset Alzheimers, which if I follow the path of my father, I should start experiencing in 7 years. I'm doing everything I can to not make that happen, even if that means I technically become 10% pesctatarian and 90% vegan.

I'd rather die early than lose my mind.

It sounds like you're missing nuts and seeds that provide healthy fats. I would incorporate them into your diet and see if it allows you to eliminate fish. Examples include hemp seeds, chia seeds, celery seeds, almonds, and sunflower seeds.

If you particularly need omega 3s, chia seeds are loaded with them.

Just something to consider.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

It sounds like you're missing nuts and seeds that provide healthy fats. I would incorporate them into your diet and see if it allows you to eliminate fish. Examples include hemp seeds, chia seeds, celery seeds, almonds, and sunflower seeds.

If you particularly need omega 3s, chia seeds are loaded with them.

Just something to consider.

Thanks, however I do eat a ton of this stuff already. Daily. My protein drink is a blended mix of chia, hemp, and almonds. That’s been a dietary staple of mine. I also eat a ton of nuts and seeds. I’ve discovered that any deficiencies I unearth in my life is usually not to diet, but genetics, like the MTHFR thing above. I plan a retest so hopefully it will be temporary.

 

[Jon822]

Thanks, however I do eat a ton of this stuff already. Daily. My protein drink is a blended mix of chia, hemp, and almonds. That’s been a dietary staple of mine. I also eat a ton of nuts and seeds. I’ve discovered that any deficiencies I unearth in my life is usually not to diet, but genetics, like the MTHFR thing above. I plan a retest so hopefully it will be temporary.

Well that sucks. Have you considered rerolling for better genetics?

 

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[MTF]

Although I now need to confess something with respect to my longevity crusade to 100 years of age. I had some more extensive blood work done due to my family history with Alzheimers and my fatty acid levels where not at level where they would become cognitively protective. As such and much to my dismay, about a month ago I had to add fish to my diet as well as a ton of fish-oil capsules. I don't even like fish and yea, I'm not happy about it. However, I'd rather deal with the cognitive dissonance of this health choice than deal with early onset Alzheimers, which if I follow the path of my father, I should start experiencing in 7 years. I'm doing everything I can to not make that happen, even if that means I technically become 10% pesctatarian and 90% vegan.

Is this because of omegas? If so, there's vegan omega 3. Fish oil is a thing because fish eat algae that actually are the original source of it.

Just one example:

The Vegetology Omega-3 range - Best selling range - Vegetology

<p dir="ltr">Putting even more 'good' into 'good fats', our 100% natural Vegan Omega-3 is created directly from microalgae grown in a lab, offering all of the many benefits of Omega-3 but from a 100% vegan source, taking away any of the safety or purity concerns associated with fish sources. Our...

www.vegetology.com

 

[MJ DeMarco]

If so, there's vegan omega 3.

I was already taking a boatload of vegan omegas before I got the test. The whole thing reminds me when I discovered I was deficient in folate many years ago, despite not lacking it in my diet. It was genetic BS (MTHFR) where my body struggles to use the nutrients appropriately. From what I understand, this is similar. It also helps explain why my father suffered from Alzheimer's way to early in life.